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This excerpt is from Open Logic Project's Set Theory: An Open Introduction (p. 30):

Third: when we “identify” relations with sets, we said that we would allow ourselves to write $Rxy$ for $\langle x, y\rangle\in R$. This is fine, provided that the membership relation, “∈”, is treated as a predicate. But if we think that “$\in$” stands for a certain kind of set, then the expression “$\langle x, y\rangle\in R$” just consists of three singular terms which stand for sets: “$\langle x, y\rangle$”, “$\in$”, and “$R$”. And such a list of names is no more capable of expressing a proposition than the nonsense string: “the cup penholder the table”. Again, even if some relations can be treated as sets, the relation of set-membership must be a special case. (This rolls together a simple version of Frege’s concept horse paradox, and a famous objection that Wittgenstein once raised against Russell.)

What does it mean to treat the membership relation as a predicate rather than a set? How does this differ formally from treating it as a set? Are predicates not themselves relations? Are they things that can, so to speak, “accept” sets? Is the difference one of order (e.g., first-order, second-order, etc.)?

Tankut Beygu
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inkd
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  • @TankutBeygu I had the title and the author’s name in the image description portion of the original text, but for some reason it never showed up. Should I just mention the source parenthetically in the main paragraph? – inkd Jun 06 '25 at 15:51
  • @MauroALLEGRANZA If predicates are also relations, wouldn’t they also count as sets (on this definition), so that we’re still relying on sets to define relations (and thereby failing to solve the problem)? – inkd Jun 06 '25 at 16:03
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    There is no set $z$ such that all sets $x,,y$ satisfy $x\in y$ iff $(x,,y)\in z$. – J.G. Jun 07 '25 at 08:08
  • @J.G. And so this is a (rather beautiful) formal statement of the fact that the membership relation can’t be a set (or at least can’t be set-theoretically construed)? How else would we formally represent it as a relation, if that’s the case? (Apologies if my questions are repetitive—just gaining my bearings with all this.) – inkd Jun 07 '25 at 17:08
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    @inkd “How else would we formally represent it as a relation” None. We treat that relation as a basic primitive at the formal language level. See signature (logic). – user76284 Jun 07 '25 at 17:18
  • @user76284 But must we? I confess something of a distaste for primitives. Is it possible to rigorously define it within some language? Have any such attempts been made? – inkd Jun 07 '25 at 17:58
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    @inkd In this language, there is only one primitive: $\in$. In that other language you're alluding to, what would be its primitive(s)? – user76284 Jun 07 '25 at 19:09
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    "How else would we formally represent it as a relation" In "vanilla" set theory the only "things" are sets, but predicates aren't things, they're phrases in the language. But if you extend set theory to form arbitrary classes of sets, you can have a class of $(x,,y)$ ordered pairs with $x\in y$. In fact, this "proper class" is sometimes denote $\in$. – J.G. Jun 07 '25 at 19:58
  • @user76284 I knew you’d ask, and I knew I wouldn’t have an answer :( … Does every formal language have primitives because the buck must always stop somewhere, or is it the case that, though they all have primitives, it’s possible (at least in principle) to continue defining them ad infinitum, without ever reaching a stopping point? – inkd Jun 07 '25 at 20:33
  • @J.G. Could you say more about the difference between “things” and “phrases in the language”? (Is it at all like the relation between proper subsets—which I’ve been told can’t be elements—and elements of a set?) – inkd Jun 07 '25 at 20:38
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    @user76284 I suppose what I’m asking is (roughly): Are primitives absolute or relative (to or between formal languages)? – inkd Jun 07 '25 at 20:39
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    Here's the difference: quantifiers run over things, but when doing so they talk with predicates. For example, $\forall x\phi(x)$ uses $\phi(x)$ as a phrase. – J.G. Jun 07 '25 at 21:50

2 Answers2

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We have to avoid conflation of predicate symbols of the language: the language of set theory has only one, the binary symbol $\in$, with the objects defined with le language of the theory: sets for set theory.

In set theory, all objects defined by the theory are sets, of which relations are sets satisfying a specific condition.

The confusion can arise due to the fact that the predicate symbols of arity one are usually identified with properties while predicate symbols of arity greater than one are called relation.

Thus, in the language of set theory, we have the binary relation symbol $\in$, to which no "set as relation" corresponds.

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    I see a downvote for your answer, too. I've requested a moderator intervention, for I suspect that there has been some downvoting recently, also in some other questions, not on an objective basis, but as sort of misconduct. – Tankut Beygu Jun 12 '25 at 11:07
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The OLP's book spares one and a half pages to some philosophical reflections on the topic. The authors might have thought that it would be useful to touch on several issues that might occur to the reader in order to acknowledge that they are not pointless at all, but without spilling over into philosophical and linguistic areas that are not of significance in mathematics. I shall present an explication of what is at stake within the same limits, hoping to be helpful.

A classical theme of philosophical argumentation is the inquiry into tertium quid (viz., what is the "third thing"?) that unites or mediates two given elements. For an extensive overview and variations of this theme in the context concerning properties and relations, see Katarina Perovic's SEoP entry "Bradley’s Regress" due to Francis H. Bradley's work. We shall focus on the line of reasoning which typically proceeds in the following path:

  1. We begin with a proposition involving $X$ and $Y$ which are of the same category.
  2. It is generally untenable to regard $X$ and $Y$ as mere juxtapositions by chance; they are not simply co-present without relation.
  3. Therefore, there must be some third constituent that connects or relates them. Thus, the structure of the proposition may be represented as $X^{\frown}?^{\frown}Y$.
  4. Let us call this third constituent $\alpha$, hence $X^{\frown}\alpha^{\frown}Y$. The task is, then, to adequately characterise $\alpha$.
  5. If $\alpha$ is of the same category as $X$ and $Y$, the result is either an absurdity, or the need of a third element between $X$ and $\alpha$ and, also between $\alpha$ and $Y$, recurs, which leads to an infinite regress.
  6. Therefore, $\alpha$ must be of some other category—prompting the need for a proper definition of this mediating term, from which the characterisation problem ensues again.

This issue manifests in set theory as follows: In the same fashion, we have two singular terms here for the set $\langle x, y\rangle$ (which is equal to $\{\{x\},\{x, y\}\}$) and the relation $R$ (which has been defined to be a set). We connect them via $\in$. If $\in$ is a relation, it must count as a set alongside the others, but then the result is nonsensical. Otherwise, we have to put it into another category and characterise it accordingly, but if membership is neither a relation (i.e., that which relates) nor a relatum (i.e., that which is related), then what is it? The question persists.

A few brief remarks about why "this rolls together a simple version of Frege’s 'concept horse' paradox, and a famous objection that Wittgenstein once raised against Russell" may be in order.

Frege held that concepts and objects (these terms are explicated in his writings at length) are fundamentally different: Concepts are unsaturated (they need something to apply to), whereas objects are saturated (complete in themselves). In the language of logic he developed, names must refer to objects. However, Frege's exclusivity thesis—that something is either a concept or an object, never both—produces this result when predicative expressions are nominalised. So, when we speak of 'the concept horse', the phrase behaves like a name and thus refers to an object, not a concept. This leads to the paradoxical result that:

The concept horse is not a concept.

Frege admitted this as a troubling but unavoidable consequence of his system, stemming from the tension between language about concepts and language using concepts predicatively.

A similar incoherence was allegedly laid bare in Russell's analyses by Wittgenstein's views. Wittgenstein emphasised that relations (like set-membership '$\in$') cannot be treated as objects, or sets, without losing their logical role. In his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, Wittgenstein writes,

3.1432 Instead of, ‘The complex sign “$aRb$” says that $a$ stands to $b$ in the relation $R$’, we ought to put, ‘That “$a$” stands to “$b$” in a certain relation says that $aRb$.’

This means the relation ($R$ or $\in$) is not an object but the way in which objects are structured in a proposition. Treating '$\in$' as a set, as Russell’s framework might suggest, reduces it to an object, which Wittgenstein saw as a category mistake akin to Frege’s concept 'horse' paradox.

What emerges of relevance for our present concerns, the question boils down to whether the primitives in formal languages are absolute or relative, as noted in the comments. The mainstream course on this can be described overall as taking a relative (i.e., context-sensitive) stance, in a certain sense. Specifically, $\in$ is taken as a dyadic predicate with a fixed syntax and interpretation in the object language of set theory, allowing alternative treatments in the metalanguage and other contexts. Actually, that is what Benno Kerry, a contemporary critic of Frege, argued: The distinction is relative rather than absolute; a thing may be a concept in one context and an object in another.

Finally, in this connection, I recommend Lewis Carroll's witty article "What the Tortoise Said to Achilles", a dialogue centred on the issue of tertium quid over a deductive inference (its freely available pdf can be found on the Web).

Tankut Beygu
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