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My question is related to this one.

I'd like to explore this result in the context of polynomials defined on a smooth, properly embedded (thus closed) $m$-dimensional submanifold $M \subset R^n$. That is, I have a finite collection of polynomials defined on $M$ (say the determinants of submatrices whose entries are functions of the points of $M$) and would like to investigate the subset of $M$ (call it $Z$) on which all those functions vanish.

My approach is to think of $Z$ as the intersection of a finite number of manifolds; i.e. the zero sets of each of the determinant functions, and $M$.

Question: Is it correct to say that either $Z$ is all of $M$ or is a subset of $M$ of measure zero? If that is true then, since $Z$ is clearly closed, can we say that $M \setminus Z$ is either empty or open-dense?

I realize there is a question of what measure to use on $M$, I would guess $m$-dimensional Hausdorff measure, but I haven't gotten quite that far yet.

I've searched around for answers to this question (as you can see from my link) but I know things can become delicate when dealing with submanifolds, so really any pointers to resources addressing this question would be appreciated. I wouldn't have asked if I thought the question was trivial, but I guess it's possible, in which case I apologize.

Edit: Moishe Kohan has kindly pointed out that the concept of real analytic manifold as it pertains to $M$ is relevant here. I will look into this further.

Edit$^2$: I have found this post on MO, go figure. For anyone who has interest in this question, the fact that analytic manifolds and zeros of polynomials are related is fascinating. Then again, having locally an expansion logically connects these manifolds to polynomials. At least that is my immediate impression. There is another post which discusses a question closer to mine, but still no cigar. A key may be if I can compose chart coordinates with real analytic functions and get real analytic functions then my problem reduces to $R^n$. Thanks are also due to Severin Schraven for a counterexample that illustrates the difficulty with real analytic manifolds.

Edit$^3$: Severin Schraven has made the suggestion that the implicit function theorem coupled with this post will give me what I'm looking for (at least when $M$ is connected, or on each connected component of $M$). Will look into it.

Update: As you can see, Moishe Kohan has graciously provided a detailed proof, which I have marked as the Answer. From my perspective, the key seems to be (Severin Schraven also pointed this out) that when $M$ is an analytic manifold the coordinate maps are analytic so that my question can be reduced, in one way or another, to questions about real analytic functions on domains in $R^n$. This is crucial since there are existing results (e.g. Identity Theorem) available for real analytic fuctions in this context.

I do, however, have some questions about that proof which I will post over the next day or two in the comment section.

HerbF1978
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  • Do you assume that your submanifold is real-analytic? Otherwise, absolutely not even if $n=2$. – Moishe Kohan Feb 20 '25 at 15:28
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    Ahh,. I am loathe to admit I am not familiar with real analytic submanifolds, and especially that such a condition would bear on this question. Thank you for that, at least. I will investigate. As an aside, $M$ is actually realized as a level set; i.e. I have a function $\phi$ mapping $R^m$ into $R^k$ ($k < m$) and this map is a submersion. $M$ is then the inverse of a regular value of $\phi$. My job is now to investigate. Thanks again. – HerbF1978 Feb 20 '25 at 15:35
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    Just think of a regular level set of a real analytic map. – Moishe Kohan Feb 20 '25 at 15:42
  • Yes, I sensed (though not immediately) that it would be an "extremely smooth" manifold, for want of a better term, and would require that the transition maps be real analytic. But to be fair, I wasn't sure so I've done some research. Since you asked about the submanifold $M$, my guess is that polynomials are automatically analytic (again, I am going out on a limb here). Can you possibly suggest a resource that answers my question in case $M$ is real analytic? Or is it hopeless? :) Thank you in advance. – HerbF1978 Feb 20 '25 at 17:20
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    I will add an answer later on. – Moishe Kohan Feb 20 '25 at 17:21
  • Take $M$ to be the union of the unit sphere and it translation (such that they are disjoint). Then the polynomial $$p(x_1,x_2)=x_1^2+x_2^2-1$$ vanishes on one of the two spheres. Thus, this would give you a counterexample. – Severin Schraven Feb 20 '25 at 17:33
  • Thank you, Severin Schraven, you are of course correct, I guess I just had in my mind a more orthodox manifold (i.e. level set). But, at the risk of using a comment for other than its intended purpose, would the translate need to be disjoint? Wouldn't any slight perturbation be a counterexample? Just curious. – HerbF1978 Feb 20 '25 at 17:50
  • @HerbF1978 It's not quite as easy. Real-analyticity is very rigid. I'd guess that if you make the manifold connected that your statement should become true. – Severin Schraven Feb 20 '25 at 19:54
  • Ahh, yes, as soon as I read your comment I thought there might be "trouble" at points at which the two spheres intersect (of course I could be wrong). Appreciate the time you've taken to comment here, I've found another post on MO which answers a question CLOSER to mine, will keep looking. – HerbF1978 Feb 20 '25 at 20:04
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    Essentially you can go into charts. Then you are asking when the zero locus of a real-analytic map $$f: \mathbb{R}^m\supseteq U \rightarrow \mathbb{R}.$$ At first you might think that one needs to allow for a higher dimensional co-domain, but you can simply use the fact that $p_1^2(x)+\dots +p_\ell(x)^2=0$ iff $p_1(x)=\dots =p_\ell(x)=0$ (as we are over the real numbers). Now you need to study the zero locus of this map. For this, the arguments here https://mathoverflow.net/questions/13827/real-analytic-manifolds-in-real-analytic-sets are helpful. – Severin Schraven Feb 20 '25 at 20:09
  • The reason you'll need connected is that the identity theorem will only help you on connected components. – Severin Schraven Feb 20 '25 at 20:11
  • @Severin Schraven: Just wanted to ask two quick questions. In your next to last comment (beginning "Essentially...") it seems the second sentence was cut short. Also, by "zero locus" do you mean the set of points in $R^m$ at which $f$ is zero? You've already provided good info, I just need to ask to be clear about what you're saying. I've looked at your link, don't immediately see the connection but between Moishe Kohan's comments and yours, hopefully at least I'll learn what I don't know about this question. – HerbF1978 Feb 20 '25 at 22:07
  • @HerbF1978 I have missed a "is a null set". Yes, by zero locus I mean the set where $f$ vanishes. Morally, what we would like to say is the following. Either the zero locus is "$m-1$-dimensional" (in a suitable sense) and therefore a null set, or it is $m$-dimensional and therefore everything. For the second point, you want to use the identity theorem. In fact https://mathoverflow.net/questions/13827/real-analytic-manifolds-in-real-analytic-sets together with the identity theorem gives you the everything part if your manifold $M$ is connected. – Severin Schraven Feb 20 '25 at 22:54
  • OK, got it, thanks. I would like to use this in some research, I may choose to only claim it on each connected component of $M$ and pursue the non-connected case later. I just need to nail down my understanding of the multi-dimensional Identity Theorem. – HerbF1978 Feb 20 '25 at 23:49
  • @HerbF1978 I think it would be more important for you to understand the implicit function theorem. The argument in https://mathoverflow.net/questions/13827/real-analytic-manifolds-in-real-analytic-sets already gives you what you want. – Severin Schraven Feb 21 '25 at 00:03
  • OK, I will review my understanding of the IFT, I guess I don't know it as well as I thought. Then I will dig into your link to see how it answers the question I posed. Thanks very much for that. – HerbF1978 Feb 21 '25 at 00:20
  • Just a comment: the set of zeroes of a set of polynomials (equivalent to the set of zeroes of a single polynomial since you can sum of squares the different polynomials) is known as an algebraic set or algebraic variety. So your question is whether the intersection of a manifold $M$ and an algebraic set $Z$ must have measure zero. – Caleb Stanford Feb 21 '25 at 00:35
  • Yes, precisely, although it would seem possible that $M$ is contained in (or coincides with) the algebraic variety. For example, it might be the level set, corresponding to zero, of a single polynomial. That would make the situation analogous to the non-manifold case. But, to reiterate, yes,that is in fact my question (apart from what measure should be used). Thanks much. – HerbF1978 Feb 21 '25 at 00:50

1 Answers1

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To convert my comments to an answer. First, suppose that your submanifold $M^m\subset \mathbb R^n$ is real-analytic, i.e. is locally a graph of a real-analytic vector-function. (Equivalently, locally, $M$ is the image of a real-analytic embeddings from open subsets of $\mathbb R^m$ to $\mathbb R^n$. Equivalently, locally, near each point $p\in M$, the submanifold $M$ is the regular level set of real-analytic function $U\to \mathbb R^{n-m}$, defined on a neighborhood $U$ of $p$.) Then for every real-analytic function $f: \mathbb R^n\to \mathbb R^k$ and for every component $C$ of $M$, either $f$ is identically zero on $C$ or $f^{-1}(0)\cap C$ has measure zero in $C$. Here one can take any reasonable measure on $M$, for instance, the one given by a Riemannian metric on $M$ or the $m$-dimensional Hausdorff measure restricted to $M$: All "reasonable" measures will be absolutely continuous with respect to each other. To prove the dichotomy, it suffices to argue in local real-analytic coordinates on $M$, $\psi: V\to M$, $V$ is open in $\mathbb R^m$. Namely, it suffices to check that $h=f\circ \psi$ satisfies $h^{-1}(0)$ has zero Lebesgue measure. (One can use the Lebesgue measure since on $\psi(U)$ again, the push-forward of the Lebesgue measure will be "reasonable".) The composition of real-analytic functions is again real-analytic. If for one of the coordinate functions $\psi$ the composition $h$ will be identically zero, then $f$ will vanish on $\psi(V)$. By real-analyticity, it will follow that $f$ is identically zero on $C$. Thus, it suffices to observe that each nonconstant real-analytic function $h$ defined on an open connected subset of $\mathbb R^m$ has zero measure of the zero-level set $h^{-1}(0)$. This was explained many times on this site, see for instance here or here, etc...

Now, if $M$ is merely smooth, then the $m$-dimensional measure of $f^{-1}(0)\cap C$ need not be zero even if $f$ is a linear function. For instance, note that for every closed subset $A\subset \mathbb R$ there is a smooth function $g: \mathbb R\to \mathbb R$ such that $g^{-1}(0)=A$. (This was explained many times on this site, but it's a good exercise to find such a function for, say, $A=(-\infty, 0]$.) Now, let $M$ denote the graph of $g$: It is a smooth 1-dimensional submanifold in $\mathbb R^2$. Take $f(x,y)=y$. Then $f^{-1}(0)\cap M=A\times \{0\}$. Take $A\subset \mathbb R$, a proper closed subset which has positive 1-dimensional measure. Then $A$ will have positive measure in $M$ (with respect to any "reasonable" measure on $M$). Since $g$ is nonconstant, so is $f|_A$. That's a counter-example.

Moishe Kohan
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  • Thanks for taking the time to do a comprehensive write-up, which I've marked as the answer. However, at the risk of "overstaying my welcome", I do have a couple of questions about your proof, which I will put in comments below. I just want to be sure that I'm not overlooking something, so it may take a bit of time and those comments will be posted over the next day or two. Obviously, I would appreciate whatever additional info you can provide but either way, thanks again. – HerbF1978 Feb 22 '25 at 12:59
  • I am having a bit of difficulty with this part of the proof: "If for one of the coordinate functions $\psi$ the composition $h$ will be identically zero, then $f$ will vanish on $\psi(V)$. By real-analyticity, it will follow that $f$ is identically zero on $C$". This seems to be saying that knowing $f$ is zero on an open subset of $C$ implies, through real-analyticity, that $f$ is zero on all of $C$. Is this using the Identity Theorem, which seems to apply only to domains in $R^n$, or another result (which I can not identify)? I would have thought you would apply that Theorem to $h$ on $V$. – HerbF1978 Feb 22 '25 at 15:16
  • @HerbF1978: The identity theorem applies to real analytic manifolds too. – Moishe Kohan Feb 22 '25 at 15:22
  • OK, that answers that. Glad I didn't ask a dumb question (at least yet). :) – HerbF1978 Feb 22 '25 at 15:47
  • @HerbF1978: It's a good exercise to check your understanding of the definition of a real analytic manifold, try it. – Moishe Kohan Feb 22 '25 at 16:01
  • You're not saying that it (identity theorem) applies to real analytic manifolds as well precisely because there are real analytic coordinates, are you (so I really didn't need to "reinvent the wheel")? In that case the real need for the analytic coordinates observation is to prove the part about measure zero. Am I digging a deep enough hole for myself here? – HerbF1978 Feb 22 '25 at 16:07
  • That's precisely what I am saying. – Moishe Kohan Feb 22 '25 at 17:32
  • It might be worth pointing out that the second link gives the slightly stronger version (finite union of smooth manifolds) to get the nowhere dense part of the question. – Severin Schraven Feb 28 '25 at 00:31
  • @SeverinSchraven: Right, that was my answer. The "nowhere dense" part is easy, it's just the identity theorem for analytic functions. But the link proves that the Hausdorff dimension of the zero set is $\le m-1$. – Moishe Kohan Feb 28 '25 at 00:38