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"Give a relation that satifies the condition:"

Symmetric and transitive but not reflexive.

This is what I gave:

R = {(x,y), (y,z), (z,x), (y,x), (z,y), (x,z)}

I was told this was not transitive. However, my book's definition of transitive is the following:

R is transitive if for every x, y, and z, xRy and yRz implies xRz

What did I do incorrectly?

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    You have $y R z$ and $z R y$, but not $y R y$. –  Feb 05 '14 at 00:23
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    I also have xRy and yRx, but no xRx... and zRx xRz, but not zRz. I assumed those are considered reflexive.. Would I need those as well? – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:25
  • If you had all these relations, $R$ would be both transitive and reflexive. Currently, it's neither. –  Feb 05 '14 at 00:27
  • Right, but I specifically can't have reflexive. I need Transitive and symmetric for this problem. Sorry, I'm just confused. – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:29
  • If this was transitive, since you have xRy and yRx, you would need to have xRx as well, but that would make it reflexive. – Bonnaduck Feb 05 '14 at 00:34
  • Okay, I'm beginning to see that. So with the example I provided (x, y, and z), is it impossible to turn this into a both transitive and symmetric answer without being reflexive? – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:36
  • See the answer I just posted for possible help (and possible confusion. . . ) – David Feb 05 '14 at 00:37
  • I have created a canonical Q&A, which is meant to address this question, and others like it. – Xander Henderson Aug 26 '20 at 22:21

2 Answers2

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At the risk of confusing you even more, here is a well known fake theorem.

"Theorem". If a relation is symmetric and transitive, it must be reflexive.

"Proof". Suppose $R$ is symmetric and transitive. Take any element $x$. Take an element $y$ such that $x\,R\,y$. Since $R$ is symmetric we have $y\,R\,x$. But then since $R$ is transitive and $x\,R\,y$ and $y\,R\,x$, we have $x\,R\,x$. As this is true for all $x$, the relation $R$ is reflexive.

If you can figure out what is wrong with this argument, it may guide you in the direction of the example you need. Good luck!

David
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  • Thank you! It seems to me that there are very few cases where this will not be true, such as an empty relation.. – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:42
  • Okay, is S the domain here? if so, is R just a set of mappings? what is the range? – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:44
  • @user3221706, well done - the empty relation is an answer (not the only example) - it is symmetric and transitive, though you will probably have to think carefully to see why. – David Feb 05 '14 at 00:46
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Let us use $\{a,b,c\}$ as the set your relation is over to avoid confusion with the $x,y,z$ in the definitions of reflexive, symmetric, transitive. To be reflexive you would have to have $\{(a,a),(b,b),(c,c)\} \subset R$ Your relation corresponds to $\{(a,b),(b,a),(a,c)(c,a),(b,c),(c,b)\}$ so your relation is certainly not reflexive. In the definition of transitive, it is not required that $x,y,z$ be distinct elements, so I can say that if the relation is transitive $(aRb\ \& \ bRa) \implies aRa$. By inspection this is false, so the relation is not transitive.

To rescue this, assume $aRb$. Then by symmetry you have $bRa$. By transitivity, then we need $aRa$ Does this suggest a way out?

Ross Millikan
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  • Is this a possible solution? R= {(a,b), (b, a), (a, a)} It would seem to me this satisfies symmetric and transitive, but not reflexive as there is no (b,b). – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:48
  • No, because $(bRa\ &\ aRb) \implies bRb$ so it is not transitive. If you add $(b,b)$ to it you will be fine because you still don't have $(c,c)$. But there is a simpler example... – Ross Millikan Feb 05 '14 at 00:51
  • Then unfortunately I'm unable to see the suggested way out.. – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 00:55
  • What would you need to take away from the relation you just gave to make sure it wasn't reflexive? – Bonnaduck Feb 05 '14 at 01:01
  • @Bonnaduck: His relation, augmented by the required $(b,b)$ is still not reflexive. In fact, that is an acceptable answer to the problem if the set the relation applies to is ${a,b,c}$ – Ross Millikan Feb 05 '14 at 01:06
  • So I was overlooking something incredibly simple; relations don't have to use the entire domain. – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 01:08
  • @H4x0rjax: what saved us was not having $c$ related to anything. Then we didn't get forced to have $(c,c)$ in the relation. We can keep going down that path. Yes, your last comment is correct. You can have a relation where some element of the domain is not related to anything. – Ross Millikan Feb 05 '14 at 01:11
  • Ah. Great, thank you for the help! – H4x0rjax Feb 05 '14 at 01:12
  • @H4x0rjax: the simplest answer is the empty relation. Symmetric and transitive are of the form if (something is related) then (something else is related). If nothing is related then this is true. – Ross Millikan Feb 05 '14 at 03:44