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Problem: Show that $\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3} \in \mathbb{Q}$

My approach

By definition, $\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3} \in \mathbb{Q} \iff \exists n,m \in \mathbb{Z}: \sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3} = \frac{n}{m}$

Carrying out the algebra, we get:

$m\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} = n+m\sqrt{3} \implies m^2(4+2\sqrt{3}) = n^2 + 2nm\sqrt{3} + 3m^2$

$\implies m^2 + (2m^2-2mn)\sqrt{3} - n^2 = 0$

We need to find integer solutions for $m,n$ to show that this expression evaluates to a rational number. In this case, we can choose $m=n$ for any $n \in \mathbb{Z}$, so we have the equivalency class $\{1\}$ as the set of values for $m,n$ that solve this equation..

Is this a valid proof or am I making an implicit assumptions or not checking a condition?


Edit on completing the above proof

So I conferred with a mathematics professor, and he confirmed my reasoning is valid, but incomplete. In my above proof, I square the expressions in one of my steps, which introduces extraneous solutions (i.e., my steps are not reversible).

Therefore, all I have shown is that $1$ may be the value of $\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3}$. The proof now requires me to show that, indeed, $\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3} =1$.

Thankfully, this is an easy final check:

$$\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3} = 1 \implies \sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} =1+ \sqrt{3} \implies 4+2\sqrt{3} = 1+2\sqrt{3} + 3 = 4+2\sqrt{3}$$

$\square$

  • You are showing $m=n$ already implies the required expression is $1$. More likely, the last step you doing only implies that you try to verify $m=n$ is a solution of your equaiton $m^2+(2m^2-2mn)\sqrt{3}-n^2=0$, but not related to original statement. – Angae MT Jul 29 '24 at 04:13
  • @AngaeMT but if there exists m,n (integers) such that the equation has a solution then doesn't the original expression evaluate to a rational number? I got the equation by applying the definition of a rational number to the expression. –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:16
  • @SassatelliGiulio apologies, but I have several $\implies$ in here. Could you be more direct? What I think I have shown is that $\sqrt{4 + 2\sqrt{3}}-\sqrt{3}=1 \in \mathbb{Q}$ –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:21
  • @SassatelliGiulio I still don't get the issues, m=n does solve the equation. The last line is exactly this check -- as long as we pick m and n to be the same integer we get a valid solution, so it is rational and, specifically, it evaluates to 1. –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:29
  • @SassatelliGiulio last line - I show that, indeed, we can find a pair of integers that solves the equation. –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:32
  • @OnTheWay -- there may have been a formatting error - can't read your comment –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:33
  • ${m^2} + (2{m^2} - 2mn)\sqrt 3 - {n^2} = 0 \Leftrightarrow \left( {m - n} \right)\left( {2\sqrt 3 m + m + n} \right) = 0$ then you can show that $n=m$ or $n=m(-1-2\sqrt{3})$ which leads to $n/m=1$. – OnTheWay Jul 29 '24 at 04:34
  • @SassatelliGiulio sorry, I really don't get this green/blue thing. Can you write an answer showing where this went off the rails and what I'm missing? –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:37
  • No, I generally prefer not to write answers on this site. – Sassatelli Giulio Jul 29 '24 at 04:38
  • @OnTheWay didn't I do that? By inspection, we can see that if $n=m$ it solves the equation. –  Jul 29 '24 at 04:39
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  • The OP shows, if the expression equals $n/m$, then the pair $m,n$ is a solution to $() , m^2 + (2m^2-2mn)\sqrt{3} - n^2 = 0$. You need to converse, if the pair $m,n$ is a solution to $()$ then the original expression equals $n/m.$ The implications need to be reversed. As an extra: The converse shows $(*)$ only has solutions $m=n.$ – Steen82 Jul 29 '24 at 12:02

4 Answers4

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$$\left( ~1 + \sqrt{3} ~\right)^2 = 4 + 2\sqrt{3} \implies $$

$$\sqrt{4 + 2\sqrt{3}} = 1 + \sqrt{3}.$$


The above analysis has the defect of being an answer rather than a (derived) solution.

Suppose

$$\left( a + b\sqrt{3} ~\right)^2 = 4 + 2\sqrt{3}.$$

Then $~2ab = 2~$ and $~a^2 + 3b^2 = 4.$

This implies that

$$b = \frac{1}{a} \implies a^2 + \frac{3}{a^2} = 4.$$

This implies that

$$a^4 - 4a^2 + 3 = 0 \implies (a^2 - 3) \times (a^2 - 1) = 0.$$


$\underline{\text{Addendum}}$

$$\implies m^2 + (2m^2-2mn)\sqrt{3} - n^2 = 0$$

If $~r~$ and $~s~$ are integers and

$$r + s\sqrt{3} = 0,$$

then $~r = 0~$ and $~s = 0.$

So, the original poster's approach, up to the excerpted line above is viable.

You end up with $~m = n~$ which implies that

$$\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3} = 1, \tag1 $$

from which the problem can be completed by an alternative route.

As a clarification, (1) above does not prove that $~m = n.~$ Instead, it proves that if $~\displaystyle \sqrt{4 + \sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3}~$ is rational, then it must be equal to $~1.$

user2661923
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  • Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, on [meta], or in [chat]. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. – Xander Henderson Jul 29 '24 at 13:43
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Suppose $$\sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} - \sqrt{3}=r \notin \mathbb{Q}\;\;\;(*)$$

Particulary, this means $r\ne 1$. Then $$4+2\sqrt{3} = (r+\sqrt{3})^2$$

so $$4+2\sqrt{3} = 3+2r\sqrt{3}+r^2$$

so $$2\sqrt{3}(1-r) = r^2-1$$

Since $r$ can not be $1$ we have $$r= -2\sqrt{3}-1$$

But then if we plugg this in $(*)$ we get

$$ \sqrt{4+2\sqrt{3}} = -\sqrt{3}-1<0$$

A contradiction.

nonuser
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  • Thanks! Didn't I implicitly do this by solving for m,n as integers? That fact that I could even find a solution implies the expression is rational. –  Jul 29 '24 at 06:20
  • Your aproach is not correct since you used the fact you have yet to prove. – nonuser Jul 29 '24 at 06:22
  • Isn't it only circular if we don't have a biconditional? An expression is only rational iff we can find integers that it satisfies. –  Jul 29 '24 at 06:24
  • I don't understand your last question. – nonuser Jul 29 '24 at 06:26
  • I used the definition of rationality -- if we can find integers that solve the equation I found, that means that the original expression is rational due to the iff statement at the beginning. If the expression were not rational, then I would not have been able to find any integer solultions. –  Jul 29 '24 at 06:29
  • user2661923 has answer you perfectly where upvote stands in a comments of his answer – nonuser Jul 29 '24 at 06:30
  • I'm not sure about that -- I only assumed that it is rational iff it satisfies the equation I derived. It did, hence it is rational. –  Jul 29 '24 at 06:32
  • I'm sorry i can not help you. By – nonuser Jul 29 '24 at 06:33
  • It's ok -- I'm almost certainly wrong but I need to clearly see why –  Jul 29 '24 at 06:34
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    @Annika you proved that if the number is rational, it is equal to 1. However, you did not prove the converse. You can see that when you use $\implies$ in your algebra and not $\iff$ – Nic Jul 29 '24 at 09:22
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This is exactly $1$: $$ \begin{align} \sqrt{4+2\sqrt3}=&\sqrt{1^2+\sqrt3^2+2\times1\times\sqrt3}\\ =&\sqrt{(1+\sqrt3)^2}\\ =&1+\sqrt3 \end{align} $$

Westlifer
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Because m and n are integers, you can find that $m = n$ by equalizing all the coefficients. $$m^2(4+2\sqrt{3}) = n^2 + 2nm\sqrt{3} + 3m^2$$ $$4m^2+2m^2\sqrt{3} = 3m^2 + n^2 + 2mn\sqrt{3}$$ Then: $$\left\{\begin{matrix} 4m^2=3m^2+n^2 \\ 2m^2=2mn \end{matrix}\right.$$ implying that $m = n$.

Bonus: You can also do the same thing starting from the equation that you get. Because the RHS is 0, all the coefficients from the LHS should be 0 as well.