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From the answer (and comments to the answer) of Alex Kruckman to my question, I understand that Fundamental theorem of calculus (FTC) is NOT a theorem in Real Closed Field theory.

Link: Is model independent of theory?

I understand his fantastic explanation but I am always confused. For example, if I consider another theory, for example Theory of Vector Space (with the idea to use things like matrix with real number entries). I have no reference but I think that Fundamental theorem of calculus isn't a theorem of Vector Space Theory either.

Is it possible for me to use knowledge (in a coherent and rigorous way) from Vector Space theory (for matrix) and from Real Analysis (for real number entries of each matrix) at the same time when I model things or not, when FTC isn't a theorem of Vector Space Theory ? Do I have to reconstruct FTC in Vector Space Theory, or the other way around (i.e. theories of VST in Real Analysis)?

Or more generally, in which theory/language should I place myself in if I want to use results from several domain ? (like for example in my case: Real analysis + Linear Algebra when studying differential forms). Maybe I must work in ZFC set theory but I'm not sure how matrix (or more generally elements of vector space) is rigorously defined in ZFC set theory.

A small reference about Vector Space Theory and its language that I've used to understand vector space theory: how to define good language for the theory of vector space?

Many thanks for your help!


Appendix:

Reply to the comment of spaceisdarkgreen when you said "there is a notion of vector space with its dedicated definition of what a vector space is [...] I think this has absolutely nothing to do with theories or model theory at all"

I don't really get it when you say "this has absolutely nothing to do with theories or model theory at all". I agree that vector space and real numbers have their own definitions. These definitions are "governed" by ZFC theory at their conception, then there are other rules (like FTC, Mean value theorem for real numbers; other rules for elements of vector space). But, when stuyding RCF, the interactions of real numbers are "governed" also by theorems of RCF theory. Then I know that FTC is not a theorem of RCF. I am surprised because why a rule that applied to a structure doesn't hold anymore when we study the general theory (RCF) with the same structure being a model ?

So for example, if I want to use calculus on Real Closed Field, must I reconstruct all the related theorems (FTC, mean value, ...) in the proper language of RCF ? I mean I don't have the right to use as is each theorem of real analysis without adapting it to RCF theory ?

Alex Kruckman
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VDT-QHH
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    What is your goal here? What do you mean by "model things"? Why do you need to "place yourself in a theory/language"? Yes, formalizing and proving things in disparate areas of mathematics is something ZFC can do, and theories like RCF and VS($\mathbb R$) are not intended for or useful for such purposes. – spaceisdarkgreen Apr 28 '24 at 21:06
  • @spaceisdarkgreen: I mean for example if I study differential forms, there is a notion of vector space with its dedicated theory, and there are also real numbers involved when i talk about scalar. Therefore I deal with 2 notions (real number and vector space) with 2 different theories at the same time. And what confuses me is that FTC is NOT (probably) a theorem of vector space theory when it is a theorem in ZFC. So, 1 framework (differential form) where live 2 notions that have the same sentence being a theorem in a theory and not in another. What do you think abt it plz? – VDT-QHH Apr 28 '24 at 21:49
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    No, there is a notion of vector space with its dedicated definition of what a vector space is, and a notion of the structure of real numbers with its corresponding definition. I think this has absolutely nothing to do with theories or model theory at all. – spaceisdarkgreen Apr 28 '24 at 22:13
  • @spaceisdarkgreen: Hello, I have extended my question with "Appendix" to response to your above comment, could you please have a look at it when it is possible for you ? I understand partially what you mean but there is always the coherence between the concepts confuse me, so I insist on my question, please forgive me if it annoys you. Many thanks for your help and your precious time. – VDT-QHH Apr 29 '24 at 08:07
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    RCF is the first-order theory of the real numbers as an ordered field. When we do real analysis (working in ZFC if we insist on having some foundations, though that seems incidental here), we regularly use second-and-higher-order reasoning about the real numbers. The first-order language of ordered rings/fields has limited expressiveness, and shouldn't be expected to be able to express, much less prove, some of the theorems of analysis. – spaceisdarkgreen Apr 29 '24 at 14:38
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    (And on another note, as is almost always the case (per the Lowenheim Skolem theorem), we need second-order statements (Dedekind-completeness in this case) to characterize the ordered field of reals up to isomorphism in the first place.) – spaceisdarkgreen Apr 29 '24 at 14:41
  • (I hadn’t refreshed seen Alex has given an answer already when I made these comments… think that covers these issues and more.) – spaceisdarkgreen Apr 29 '24 at 14:53

1 Answers1

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Your question gets at the whole point of choosing a single foundational basis for mathematics, like ZFC set theory.

Let me tell you a little fable. Imagine a world where mathematicians work with separate axiomatic systems for geometry (e.g., Euclid's axioms), real numbers (e.g., the theory of real closed fields), natural numbers (e.g., Peano arithmetic), etc. etc.

Let's say I'm a geometer in this world. I go about my days proving theorems of geometry from the axioms laid down for geometry. But then some things start happening that trouble me.

  • My friend the number theorist has proven a theorem about natural numbers from Peano arithmetic that would be useful to prove a theorem in geometry. Is it ok to use their theorem? It follows from a different axiom system...
  • My friend who studies real numbers points out that concepts of geometry can be recovered "analytically" by viewing $\mathbb{R}^2$ as the plane. They start proving theorems of geometry from the axioms of real closed fields that I haven't yet proved on the basis of Euclid's axioms. Is my plan "the same" as their plane? Do I trust their theorems? Can we be confident we won't someday prove contradictory results about plane geometry?
  • Some of my geometer friends point out that if we replace the parallel postulate by variants of it, we get other geometric theories that seem useful and interesting. Do we have to split geometry into (at least) three branches, which work with different axiomatic systems? Or can we somehow study them all on the same footing?
  • When studying geometry, I notice that it's really useful to be able to talk about sets of points and functions between sets of points, and sometimes nontrivial questions arise about how to manipulate sets and functions behave, which just aren't addressed by my axioms of geometry (which are about things like individual points and lines). In fact, the same nontrivial questions are arising for my friends who study other branches of mathematics. Do we need extra assumptions governing these sets and functions? Should all the branches of mathematics adopt the same assumptions, or are different assumptions more suited to different axiom systems?

As the number of subfields of mathematics and kinds of mathematical objects grows, issues like the ones above proliferate and become impossible to ignore.

The benefit of choosing a foundation for mathematics is that all these issues get resolved. Everyone agrees to pick some primitive objects and relations between these objects and some basic axioms governing them. (In the case of ZFC, the primitive objects are called sets and the primitive relation is called $\in$. There are other options, e.g. types, or categories, but I will focus on ZFC.) Now all the other basic objects of mathematics are defined to be particular sets, and the axiomatic systems for other classes of mathematical objects turn into definitions.

For example, in ZFC we define $0$ to be the empty set $\varnothing$, we define an operation $S$ on sets called "successor", we define $1 = S(0)$, $2 = S(S(0))$, etc., and we prove that there is a smallest set called $\mathbb{N}$ containing $0$ and closed under successor. This becomes the set of natural numbers in which number theory happens. It happens that we can prove that $\mathbb{N}$ satisfies all the axioms of Peano arithmetic (PA), but this is a little beside the point: we now can do number theory working from the axioms of ZFC, not from the specialized theory PA.

Similarly, we construct the integers $\mathbb{Z}$ from $\mathbb{N}$, construct the rational numbers $\mathbb{Q}$ from $\mathbb{Z}$, and construct the real numbers $\mathbb{R}$ from $\mathbb{Q}$ (with explicit set-theoretic constructions, e.g., the real numbers is the set of Dedekind cuts in $\mathbb{Q}$). Again $\mathbb{R}$ happens to be a real closed field, but this is a little beside the point: we are no longer constrained by first-order reasoning from the axioms of real-closed fields. Our proofs about $\mathbb{R}$ can use reasoning about arbitrary subsets, arbitrary functions, facts from number theory, etc. etc. because everything lives in the same mathematical universe of sets.


Let me respond now to a few of the things you wrote in the question.

I'm not sure how matrix (or more generally elements of vector space) is rigorously defined in ZFC set theory.

ZFC's success as a foundation for mathematics comes down to the fact that almost every mathematical object people want to work with can be encoded in set theory, and almost every mathematical proof can, in principle, be reduced to the axioms of ZFC. If you want to delve into the details of how this encoding works, you need to pick up a book on set theory!

These definitions are "governed" by ZFC theory at their conception, then there are other rules (like FTC, Mean value theorem for real numbers; other rules for elements of vector space)

I'm confused about why you call FTC, MVT, etc. "rules". These are theorems (yes, they can be proved about the set $\mathbb{R}$ from the axioms of ZFC!).

Then I know that FTC is not a theorem of RCF. I am surprised because why a rule that applied to a structure doesn't hold anymore when we study the general theory (RCF) with the same structure being a model ?

The problem is that RCF is a first-order theory. One restriction of a first-order theory is that quantifiers only range over objects in the domain (in this case real numbers), not over functions and subsets. So it's not that RCF and ZFC somehow disagree about whether FTC is true. It's that FTC is not even expressible in the language of RCF. You have to be able to write something down before you can ask if it's true!

Alex Kruckman
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  • Hi Alex, thank you very much for your help! Your answer is elegant. I'm new to Mathexchange so I don't have enough mana to give you a bounty. Otherwise, I just want to confirm with you 1 point: Can I consider the axioms of real closed field theory actually a "theorem" in ZFC ? (because you said that we can prove that $\mathbb{R}$ a RCF, by using instruments supplied by ZFC) – VDT-QHH Apr 29 '24 at 21:17
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    Yes, it is a theorem (of ZFC) that $\mathbb{R}$ is a real closed field (which is the same as saying that it is a model of the theory RCF). – Alex Kruckman Apr 29 '24 at 22:56
  • Hi Alex, I hope you are doing well. After a while, I realize that ZFC is also a first-order theory, so how can FTC can be expressed in ZFC ? Can you please enlighten me ? – VDT-QHH May 06 '24 at 15:48
  • ZFC constructs the set of real numbers, the set of all functions $\mathbb{R}\to \mathbb{R}$, can define the notions of continuous function, limit, derivative, Riemann integral... there's no problem. Of course, the full statement of FTC, written out in the language of set theory, would be pages and pages of symbols. We can make it more manageable by expanding the language by definitions (introducing new symbols for defined concepts). If you want to get a sense for how this process of formalizing mathematics in set theory looks, pick up a set theory textbook (as I recommended in my answer). – Alex Kruckman May 06 '24 at 16:07
  • Hello, yes, I had finished Naive set theory of Halmos, which leads me to these questions in model theory. I have a small question if you don't mind please. I know it is wrong to think of axioms of RCF as theorems of ZFC because they are just 2 independent theories (2 different languages). But can I think that there are theorems of ZFC which "replicate" exactly the idea of axioms of RCF theory ? It is because I see that $\mathbb{R}$ follows the theorems (in formal language) of ZFC and in the same time, it satisfies also the axioms of RCF. Thanks for your help!! – VDT-QHH May 06 '24 at 18:33
  • @VDT-QHH How is that different from the question you asked in your first comment above? As I said in my first comment above: for each axiom $\varphi$ of RCF, it a theorem of ZFC that $\varphi$ is true in the field $\mathbb{R}$. – Alex Kruckman May 06 '24 at 19:40
  • In fact, I want to understand the relationship of ZFC and RCF without provoking $\mathbb{R}$ as $\mathbb{R}$ is (for me) in fact an interpretation of formal definition (with symbols) within the language of ZFC and normally, to prove a theorem of ZFC, we don't use a specific model (we use directly the axioms expressed in its language). Therefore, I think that in the ZFC formal theory, there should exist formal theorems that have the same meaning/idea as the axioms of RCF. In such a case, when interpreted in the model of ZFC, we have that $\mathbb{R}$ is a RCF. – VDT-QHH May 06 '24 at 20:31
  • Do you think I can reason like this ? Or in no way can I dissociate ZFC and its "standard" model (sets, $\in$) which involves $\mathbb{R}$ ? I'm sorry if my questions annoy you but I'm just trying to see if I can consider the theories (and relationship between ZFC and a theory) without having in mind a specific model of ZFC. Many thanks for your help! – VDT-QHH May 06 '24 at 20:55
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    @VDT-QHH Nothing I've said in any way relies on having in mind a specific model of ZFC. If you want to pursue this further, I suggest you open a new question. – Alex Kruckman May 06 '24 at 21:13
  • Hi Alex, I have escalated to a new question, could you please have a look at it when possible ? Thank you and sorry in advance for the length of the new question: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4912373/can-axioms-of-real-closed-field-theory-be-considered-theorems-of-zfc – VDT-QHH May 07 '24 at 10:54