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Let $G=P\rtimes Q$ with $P=\mathbb{Z}_7=\langle b\rangle$ and $Q=\mathbb{Z}_3=\langle a\rangle.$ Take $\theta: Q\rightarrow {\rm Aut}P$ to be $\theta(a)(b)=b^4$. Classify up to isomorphism $ G/G'$.

I was able to solve this using basic techniques: $G$ is not abelian, because conjugation is not trivial. Therefore $G'\not=\{1_G\}$. Fair enough. Let us calculate a comutator:

$$[(p,q),(\tilde{p},\tilde{q})]=(\text{something},(3-q)+(3-\tilde{q})+q+\tilde{q})=(\text{something},0)$$

But this means that $G'\leq (\mathbb{Z}_7,0)$. By Lagrange's Theorem $|G'|=1$ (absurd!) or $|G'|=7$. This means $|G'|=7$ and therefore $|G/G'|=3$ and $G/G'\approx \mathbb{Z}_3$.

Fair enough. The trouble is that I have looked at the solution and I am not able to understand anything there:

$$G/G'=\langle a,b\mid a^3=1=b^7,b=baba^{-1}=b^4\rangle=$$ $$\langle a,b\mid a^3=1=b^7,b=baba^{-1}, 1=b^3\rangle=$$ $$\langle a,b\mid a^3=1=b^7,b=baba^{-1},b=1\rangle=\langle a\mid a^3=1\rangle=\mathbb{Z}_3$$

Shouldn't we consider elements of the form $gG'$? We didn't compute $G'$. What does this equality $G/G'=\langle a,b\mid a^3=1=b^7,b=baba^{-1}=b^4\rangle$ mean?

Kadmos
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  • Why are you not able to understand anything there? If $b=b^4$, then of course $b^3=1$, isn't it? But $b^7=1$ as well, so $b=1$. – Dietrich Burde May 19 '23 at 14:57
  • But we didn't compute $G'$ what exactly are we doing? – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 14:58
  • From the [tag:solution-verification] tag wiki: "A question with this tag should include an explanation for why the argument presented is not convincing enough." – Shaun May 19 '23 at 14:58
  • Any solution verification question that doesn't specify what the problem with the argument is is considered too broad and off topic. – Shaun May 19 '23 at 14:59
  • The equality means a presentation for the group $G/G'$ in terms of the generators of $P$ and $Q$. So no cosets, just a presentation of a group with generators $a$ and $b$ and relations among the generators. This must have been mentioned in your course, otherwise it would not be in the solution. – Dietrich Burde May 19 '23 at 15:06
  • Could please explain what a presentation is? – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:07
  • I don't have this on my notes. I would greatly value if you could indicate some material online, please. Or a book on the subject if this is so basic. – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:10
  • The edit makes this question much better (+1) – Shaun May 19 '23 at 15:12
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    Have a look at the book recommendations at this site, e.g., here. Every such book explains group presentations. – Dietrich Burde May 19 '23 at 15:13
  • I think you have typos in the solution you copied. The occurrences of $baba^{-1}$ should be replaced by $aba^{-1}$. As for your question, you were asked to compute $G/G'$, not $G'$, and this solution computes $G/G'$ directly. – Derek Holt May 19 '23 at 15:21
  • @DerekHolt, how can we compute $G/G'$ directly? I am sorry, this must be very basic for algebrists, but I haven't got the faintest clue about what is going on. – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:23
  • You compute a presentation for $G/G'$ from a presentation of $G$ by adding the relations $ab=ba$ for all pairs of generators $a,b$. But if you really don't know what a presentation is then you need to learn that first. For this particular problem, your original solution was correct, so perhaps you don't need to worry about it. – Derek Holt May 19 '23 at 15:25
  • @DerekHolt, okay. So from what I gathered on wikipedia $a$ and $b$ are generators of $G$ because any element of $g$ is writen as $(a^j,b^k)$ and they satisfy a couple of relations. So I write $G=\langle a,b| \text{some relations that hold} \rangle$. How does this help me classify $G/G'$? – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:31

1 Answers1

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Let me show you a concrete realization of the group $G$: all the mod 7 invertible matrices $$ \begin{pmatrix}x&y\\0&1\end{pmatrix} $$ where $y$ is arbitrary and $x \equiv 1, 2, 4 \bmod 7$ (the subgroup of order $3$ in $(\mathbf Z/(7))^\times$). Inside this group we have the normal subgroup $$ P = \left\{\begin{pmatrix}1&y\\0&1\end{pmatrix}\right\} = \left\langle \begin{pmatrix}1&1\\0&1\end{pmatrix} \right\rangle $$ and the subgroup $$ Q = \left\{\begin{pmatrix}x&0\\0&1\end{pmatrix} : x = 1, 2, 4\right\} = \left\langle \begin{pmatrix}2&0\\0&1\end{pmatrix} \right\rangle = \left\langle \begin{pmatrix}4&0\\0&1\end{pmatrix} \right\rangle. $$ Since $$ \begin{pmatrix}x&0\\0&1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}1&y\\0&1\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}x&0\\0&1\end{pmatrix}^{-1} = \begin{pmatrix}1&xy\\0&1\end{pmatrix}, $$ you can take $a = (\begin{smallmatrix}4&0\\0&1\end{smallmatrix})$.

The group $G/G'$ is abelian and is the "biggest" abelian quotient of $G$: if there is a homomorphism $G \to A$ for some abelian group $A$, then it is trivial on $G'$, so we get an induced homomorphism $G/G' \to A$. Thus all abelian quotients of $G$ are quotients of $G/G'$. Using the above matrix model for $G$, since $$ \begin{pmatrix}x&y\\0&1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}x'&y'\\0&1\end{pmatrix}= \begin{pmatrix}xx'&y + xy'\\0&1\end{pmatrix} $$ one obvious homomorphism from $G$ onto an abelian group is $G \to \{1,2,4 \bmod 7\}$ by $$ \begin{pmatrix}x&y\\0&1\end{pmatrix} \mapsto x. $$ In terms of the notation you use, this is the map $G \to Q$ by $pq \mapsto q$. The kernel is $P$, so $G' \subset P$. Since $|P| = 7$, either $G'$ is trivial or $G' = P$. In this way you can figure out what $G'$ is without computing any commutators directly or having to use presentations. (After writing this up, I see now that it partly duplicates what you wrote, but my main purpose here is to show that the abstrac semidirect product in your problem does have a concrete description as a matrix group.)

KCd
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  • Thank you so much for taking the time to write this response! I am very grateful... But could you please explain the solution I was given? It seems to be a very compact notation and I would very much like to understand it. – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:39
  • You ask in a comment what a presentation is, so I am wondering where you found this solution since it doesn't seem like it could be from your course instructor or course notes if presentations were not already taught. – KCd May 19 '23 at 15:44
  • It is from a previous exam... – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:44
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    Oh, but then maybe group presentations are going to be taught later in the course. Ask the instructor if group presentations are a topic in the course. See Section 4 of https://kconrad.math.uconn.edu/blurbs/grouptheory/wordproblem.pdf for an informal description of group presentations and some examples. – KCd May 19 '23 at 15:48
  • I skimmed over the text and I seem to get the main idea: take generators and study what relations they must satisfy. Doesn't seem too complicated. But how would I use this to study $G/H$ for a normal $H$? – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 15:53
  • Use $H$ to see what further relations on the generators occur in $G/H$. In the case of your $G$, you start with $a^3 = 1$, $b^7 = 1$, and $aba^{-1} = b^4$. That describes $G$. In $G/G'$, commutators become trivial. One commutator is $aba^{-1}b^{-1}$, which is $b^3$, so in $G/G'$ you want $b^3 = 1$ (That is an equation in $G/G'$, not in $G$.) Since $b^7 = 1$ in $G$, also $b^7 = 1$ in $G/G'$ (reduction $G\to G/G'$ is a homomorphism). So in $G/G'$, $b = 1$. Thus $G/G'$ is generated by $a$, so $G/G'$ has order $3$ or $1$. Each step in that solution is using relations to simplify some stuff. – KCd May 19 '23 at 16:00
  • Generators and relations can be complicated since merely knowing a group has some generators and some relations does not make that group as big as you think it is. For instance, if I tell you $G$ is a group with a generator $g$ where $g^5 = 1$, that does not mean $|G| = 5$. Maybe $G$ is trivial! The trivial group fits the description I gave, after all. (A group presentation is a quotient of a free group.) Proving a group described with generators and relations is nontrivial can involve mapping it onto a nontrivial group, and being sure the mapping makes sense could involve some work. – KCd May 19 '23 at 16:03
  • OHHH. I see. comutators must be trivial. And if comutators are trivial their product must be also trivial! This means all comutator elements must be the identity in this new $G/G'$ group. And $gg'=g$ for every $g'\in G'$ as we should have in the quotient group. I will be completely satisfied if there is an isomorphism between ${gG'}_{g\in G}$ and the group $G$ when elements of $G'$ are maped to the identity. I will try to do this. – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 16:06
  • But we chose a very specific commutator to be the identity, namely $aba^{-1}b^{-1}$. Is this enough so that every comutator will go to the identity? – Kadmos May 19 '23 at 16:08
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    You don't know, but at least start doing something with information about one commutator and see what happens. (In $G/G'$, all commutators go to the identity by definition.) Since ultimately it turns out that $G'$ has prime order, it is not a surprise that the use of one nontrivial commutator winds up telling you everything you need, since a group of prime order is generated by any nontrivial element inside it. – KCd May 19 '23 at 16:10
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    It is natural to look first at the commutator $aba^{-1}b^{-1}$ since the very definition of $G$ involves the equation $aba^{-1} = b^4$, where the left side is nearly a commutator; just multiply both sides by $b^{-1}$ on the right to create a commutator relation. – KCd May 19 '23 at 16:12