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Recall that $\omega_1$ is defined as:

$$\omega_1 = \{\text{Set of all countable ordinals}\}$$

and the cantor diagonal set is defined as:

$$T = \{ s \in S: s \not\in f(s) \}$$

where $f : S \to \mathcal{P}(S)$ not surjective

We note from this proof due to Carl Mummert that $\omega_1$ is uncountable and that $\omega_1 \subset \mathcal{P}(S)$ for some $S$ that is the set of all possible partial orderings of $\Bbb{N}$ (thus well orderings will be a subset of this)

However, in order to initiate a cantor diagonal style proof of $\omega_1$ will need to be able to define $f$. Now, we knew that from this, $\omega_1$ is impredicative thus $f$ is not a binary function.

But how explicit and/or constructive can $f$ be? Is there known bounds in $ZF\neg C$ (because the answer is trivial in $ZFC$ by defining $f$ to be a choice function) that limits how explicit we can specify $f$?

The motivation of this question, in case it is unclear, is to try the best to obtain a description of the uncountable number of uncomputable countable ordinals in $\omega_1$ to better understood them.

Secret
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    It's really unclear what you're asking here. What do you mean by 'a Cantor diagonal set for $\omega_1$? Do you mean 'a proof of the uncountability of'? You've got a real jumble of terminology here. – Steven Stadnicki Oct 29 '17 at 16:08
  • We knew that in order to prove the uncountablity of an infinite set, we construct the cantor diagonal set defined by $T$. Here I am wondering whether we can prove the uncountablity of $\omega_1$ using the cantor diagonal argument alone, but that will require being able to somehow enumerate all its elements and showing that it does not inject into $\Bbb{N}$, and one important step of the proof is to find the cantor diagonal set which contains all the excess elements that does not inject into $\Bbb{N}$ – Secret Oct 29 '17 at 16:27
  • It is clear how to do the proof of uncountablility of the reals by enumerating the reals as a binary sequence, and noting how there's an element formed by the diagonal of that enumeration that is not mapped to any sequence, hence concluding the reals are strictly larger than the naturals. However, how does one do a similar thing to elements in $\omega_1$ which amounts to specifying the function $f$? – Secret Oct 29 '17 at 16:30
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    Your definition of $\omega_1$ is also incorrect. – Andrés E. Caicedo Oct 29 '17 at 16:47
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    It is false that $\omega_1\subset\mathcal P(\mathbb N)$. – Andrés E. Caicedo Oct 29 '17 at 16:52
  • It sounds like you think that Cantor-style arguments are the only ways to prove that a given set is uncountable - is this the case? – Noah Schweber Oct 29 '17 at 17:04
  • That is not true (as my quote of Carl Mummet's proof shown), but I am wondering whether we can prove or disprove there exists a cantor style proof for the uncountability of $\omega_1$ because that might provide some ways to better understand the internal structure of $\omega_1$ beside the set of all countable well orderings, by using the cantor diagonal set – Secret Oct 29 '17 at 17:09
  • I'm not really sure why you think that a Cantor-style argument will lead to a better understanding of $\omega_1$ - does the diagonal argument for $\mathbb{R}$ lead to a better understanding of $\mathbb{R}$? – Noah Schweber Oct 29 '17 at 17:13
  • well, it does show nicely on how exactly we ran out of natural numbers because listing all binaries with only one entry being 1 and you can get 0.111111111.... being a diagonal that does not map into anything. It will be cool if we can show how exactly when we try to count, $\omega_1$ with a bijection, how we ran out of things to pair up – Secret Oct 29 '17 at 17:19
  • @Secret See my answer. Given a countable list of ordinals, we can add them all and then add one to the result, and this gets a bigger countable ordinal, hence one not on the list. – Noah Schweber Oct 29 '17 at 17:20
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    Again, it is false that $\omega_1\subset\mathcal P(S)$ for $S$ the set of partial orderings on $\mathbb N$. No, rather we can consider the subset of $\mathcal P(S)$ consisting of well-orderings, but note that there is no obvious way to associate to each ordinal a unique such well-ordering (this requires a non-negligible use of the axiom of choice). – Andrés E. Caicedo Oct 29 '17 at 17:21
  • Expanding on Andres' comment: it is consistent with ZF that there is no injection from $\omega_1$ to $\mathbb{R}$. – Noah Schweber Oct 29 '17 at 17:21

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You write:

It will be cool if we can show how exactly when we try to count, $\omega_1$ with a bijection, how we ran out of things to pair up.

Here is a repackaging of the usual proof of the uncountability of $\omega_1$ which does exactly this (it should be noted that there's nothing new here mathematically, I'm just tweaking the language):

Recall that $\omega_1$ is the set of countable ordinals (this is not how you defined it). Suppose I have some function $f:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow\omega_1$; I want to construct an element $\alpha_f$ of $\omega_1$ - that is, a countable ordinal - not in $ran(f)$.

The definition of $\alpha_f$ is quite simple:

Let $\alpha_f=\bigcup\{f(i)\cup\{f(i)\}: i\in\mathbb{N}\}$.

The ordinal $\alpha_f$ is the smallest ordinal bigger than every ordinal in $ran(f)$.

Now we turn to the verification: showing that $\alpha_f\in\omega_1\setminus ran(f)$. It's easy to show that $\alpha_f$ is an ordinal: $\bigcup ran(f)$ is an ordinal since the union of any set of ordinals is an ordinal, and for any ordinal $\beta$ the set $\beta\cup\{\beta\}$ is also an ordinal (namely $\beta+1$). It's also easy to show that $\alpha_f$ is countable, since it's a countable union of countable sets. So we just need to show $\alpha_f\not\in ran(f)$. To do this, we first observe:

For every $\beta\in ran(f)$, there is an injective, order-preserving, non-surjective map from $\beta$ to $\alpha_f$.

This is a good exercise. We now use the following crucial fact about ordinals:

If $\eta,\theta$ are ordinals and there is an injective, order-preserving, non-surjective map from $\eta$ to $\theta$, then there is no order-preserving injection from $\theta$ to $\eta$. In particular, $\eta\not=\theta$.

This is an instance of a more general fact about well-orderings: if $L_1, L_2$ are well-orderings and there is an injective, order-preserving, non-surjective map from $L_1$ into $L_2$, then there is no injective order-preserving map from $L_2$ into $L_1$.

So we have $\alpha_f\not\in ran(f)$, and we're done.


Note that this construction is actually much better-behaved than the diagonal argument! The ordinal $\alpha_f$ depends only on $ran(f)$: if we compose $f$ with a permutation of $\mathbb{N}$, the resulting ordinal is unchanged. This is in contrast to the diagonal argument on $\mathbb{R}$, where the real so produced depends on the order of the list of reals we begin with (and indeed it is consistent with ZF that this must be the case).

There are other "order-independent" ways to build an ordinal not in $ran(f)$. The most natural alternative to the construction of $\alpha_f$ given above, in my opinion, is:

Let $\zeta_f=\bigcup\{f(i)\cup\{f(i)\}: \forall \eta\le f(i)\exists j\in\mathbb{N}(f(j)=\eta)\}$.

This $\zeta_f$ is the least ordinal not in $ran(f)$.


Now it's worth noting that there are many results in set theory which indicate that there can be no "concrete" picture of $\omega_1$, in various senses. For example, it is consistent with $\mathsf{ZF}$ that there is no injection from $\omega_1$ to $\mathbb{R}$ or from $\mathbb{R}$ to $\omega_1$. In $\mathsf{ZFC}$ of course there will be an injection from $\omega_1$ to $\mathbb{R}$, but it can still be very complicated: any such injection $i$ induces a relation $\trianglelefteq_i$ on a subset $S_i$ of $\mathbb{R}$, and any such pair $(S_i, \trianglelefteq_i)$ must be extremely complicated - certainly not Borel, and under additional ("large cardinal") hypotheses not even projective.

In a different direction, if we add an axiom like $\mathsf{MA+\neg CH}$ to $\mathsf{ZFC}$ (which we can consistently do if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ itself is consistent) then we can show roughly that $\omega_1$ can't be described in a concrete way as the smallest size of a set of reals which is "big enough" in some combinatorial sense. E.g. under $\mathsf{MA}$ each of the following descriptions:

  • The smallest size of a set of functions $f:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow\mathbb{N}$ such that every $g:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow\mathbb{N}$ is dominated by some $f$ in the set

  • The smallest size of a set of functions $f:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow\mathbb{N}$ such that every $g:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow\mathbb{N}$ is escaped by some $f$ in the set

  • The smallest size of a set of measure-zero sets of reals whose union is $\mathbb{R}$

  • The smallest size of a set of meager sets of reals whose union is $\mathbb{R}$

corresponds to $2^{\aleph_0}$, which under $\neg\mathsf{CH}$ is bigger than $\omega_1$. (Such descriptions are called "cardinal characteristics of the continuum.")

Noah Schweber
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  • Nice, just a small clarification, $ran(f)$ is any random set of $f$ taken from the set $\Bbb{N}\to \omega_1$ hence corresponds to some countable list of ordinals? – Secret Oct 29 '17 at 17:35
  • @Secret I don't understand what you mean. $f$ is an arbitrary map $\mathbb{N}\rightarrow\omega_1$; $ran(f)$ is the range of $f$, that is, a sequence of countable ordinals. – Noah Schweber Oct 29 '17 at 17:36
  • ok, I misrembered ran as random instead of range, thanks! – Secret Oct 29 '17 at 17:39