14

There are only countably many formal proofs in $\sf ZF$. Thus, there are only countably many sets that can be proven to exist in $\sf ZF$. This collection of sets seems to satisfy $\sf ZF$'s axioms; that means that it's a model of $\sf ZF$. Is there a name for this model?

(You might object, saying that $\mathcal P(\mathbb N)$ can be proven to exist, from Power-Set and Infinity, and you can also prove that it's uncountable — thus contradicting what I said about the model being countable. The solution, I think — though a set theorist might correct me on this if I'm wrong — is that there is no bijection between $\mathcal P(\mathbb N)$ and $\mathbb N$... in the model. Since "bijections" are defined to be types of sets, in set theory, this just means that this particular bijection isn't in our model.)

Does this model satisfy $\sf Choice$?

Another thing: What about the supremum of all countable ordinals that can be proven to exist? In our model, this is the same as asking for the supremum of all countable ordinals at all, and that's $\omega_1$. Is there a name for this ordinal in other models of $\sf ZF$?

  • From what I can tell, the down vote is not deserved. – RghtHndSd Mar 30 '15 at 00:51
  • @columbus8myhw Your question is fine. Don't take downvotes to seriously. Related meta thread. – AlexR Mar 30 '15 at 01:01
  • 1
    The relation "$x$ is definable" is not formalizable within the set theory by Tarski's undefinability theorem - it can only formalized externally so you can't define the set of all "definable sets". – Hanul Jeon Mar 30 '15 at 03:06
  • Despite of the undefinability of definablilty, I think your reasoning are pretty fine. You can avoid the problem trickily by using formalized satisfaction relation and you can collect the set of all definable elements in the given model of ZFC. I don't know it gives a model of ZFC and maybe experts gives an answer. – Hanul Jeon Mar 30 '15 at 03:25
  • Seems related: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1084138/is-it-possible-that-every-set-can-be-specified you should check out the introduction part in the paper Henning links to, it's quite informally and readable even without the technical understanding about set theory. – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 07:44
  • The Pairing axiom lets us use the notation ${a,b}$ and the like for finite sets. The Power-Set axiom lets us use the $\mathcal P$ notation. The Axiom of Specification/Separation lets us use the ${x\in A\ |\ \phi(x)}$ notation. The Axiom of Infinity lets us refer to $\mathbb N$. By a set that "you can prove exists," I guess I mean one that you can refer to using a finite combination of those notations. There's a chance I might run into a problem — Perhaps there is a set $A$ that I can neither prove equals $\varnothing$ nor prove that it doesn't equal it. Then I don't have a unique model. – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 10:04
  • Then it is easy, write the formula for CH and define the set which is empty if CH holds, or has one element otherwise. – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 11:11
  • @AsafKaragila But what if CH is necessarily true (or false) in this model? – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 11:13
  • It's still not clear to me what is the model, and why it satisfies ZF to begin with. But you can use Con(ZF) if you want. – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 11:16
  • @AsafKaragila It's just the sets that can be proven to exist, from the axioms. For example, if we have $A$ and $B$ being sets, then we can prove that $\mathcal P(A)$, $A\cup B$, ${x\in A\ |\ B\in x}$, etc., are also sets. (If I was talking about ZF without Infinity, then the sets I can prove to exist would just be the hereditarily finite sets, but not anything like $\mathbb N$, since you can't prove whether or not it exists with just ZF minus Infinity.) – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 11:21
  • @AsafKaragila I guess I'm looking for the smallest possible model, if that makes sense. I'm interested on whether this has a name, whether it satisfies Choice, and what the ordinals are like in it. – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 11:23
  • 1
    Well, you can definitely not prove that there is a bijection between $\Bbb R$ and $\omega_1$. In any case, look at the paper I directed you at. I'm still not sure, however, that this is a model, or what does "prove to exist" means in this context (proofs lie in the meta-theory), and since you have replacement you can prove that there is a proper class of ordinals; and of course you cannot prove the axiom of choice without assuming it. All in all, your question is interesting, but it is full of issues that I'm not sure how you overcome (and perhaps you only naively believe can be overcome). – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 11:24
  • @AsafKaragila Perhaps that means that CH is false in my model. If it was true, there'd be such a bijection — and, due to the way I defined my model, there'd be an explicit construction of that bijection. I feel like the independence of CH over ZF means that you can't do that, but I'm not sure. – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 11:33
  • 1
    Whatever is true in the universe of "all things which can be proved to exist" must be true everywhere. If you can prove there is an injection from $\omega_2$ into $\Bbb R$, then you can prove it everywhere. If you can prove there exists a set of intermediate cardinality between $\Bbb N$ and $\Bbb R$ then it will be true everywhere. If you can prove that there is a model of $\sf ZF$, then it will be true everywhere. I think that you have a problem with the notion of "provably exist", too. I think you're approaching this with too much of naiveté, but I'm not sure how you could fix that. – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 11:40
  • @AsafKaragila Well, the set $\mathbb R$ is probably different, because all the elements have to be "provable" themselves… I think that I'll need to spend some time trying to formalize this idea, definitely. Probably in the form of an $\omega$-indexed hierarchy, or something, where each new level is obtained by performing $\cup$ or $\mathcal P$ or ${x\in A\ |\ \phi(x)}$, etc., on the sets of the last level. – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 12:19
  • If you require that every set will be hereditarily composed of "provable elements", then you will most definitely not have a model of $\sf ZF$ in the naive approach where you can only prove countably many sets to exist. Since $\sf ZF$ proves that $\omega_1$ exists, and that would mean that you had to skip from some countable ordinal to $\omega_1$. Case closed. If I recall correctly, someone has asked a similar question before, and I had the same beef with the formulation of the question then and there. I'll try to find a link. – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 12:25
  • @AsafKaragila I talked about that in the OP, didn't I? Just because the set of countable ordinals in this model would be countable to us, doesn't mean that it's countable in the model. The required bijection from them to $\mathbb N$ doesn't exist in the model. (Aren't you familiar with countable models of ZFC, anyway?) In any case, I think it's a model, since if $A$ and $B$ exist, so does ${A,B}$ (so it satisfies Pairing), $A\cup B$ and $\bigcup A$ (so it satisfies — I think the axiom is called Union?), $\mathcal P(A)$ (so it satisfies Power-Set), etc., by definition. – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 12:42
  • Since I'm really unclear as to what you're trying to do here, I'm sorry if I'm making silly remarks. But if your universe is such that $\lnot\operatorname{Con}\sf (ZF)$ is true there, how can you expect anything to produce a model of $\sf ZF$? Or do you mean that the resultant set is a model of $\sf ZF$ from outside that universe? In the meta-meta-theory? Again, I'm not very clear about the details. What does it even mean "sets you can write down"? What about the replacement axioms? What about other things? And for one last time, look at the paper linked by Henning in the question I linked. – Asaf Karagila Mar 30 '15 at 12:49
  • It's OK that you don't understand what I'm on about — probably my fault much more than yours. And I didn't have time to read the paper, sorry; I'll get to it later today. – Akiva Weinberger Mar 30 '15 at 13:36
  • 4
    It seems to me like the comments so far may be glossing over a more basic flaw in the question. Namely, that the notion of "proving a set to exist" does not make sense, because it confuses the object language with the metalanguage. Something that can be proved is a statement, not a set, and statements are entirely different things from sets. Of course you can connect the two by considering models of set theory, but it's not clear to me what question about models of set theory your question might be intended to correspond to. – Trevor Wilson Apr 02 '15 at 20:51
  • To give an example illustrating my objection: perhaps you might say that the empty set can be "proved to exist." But you can have two different models $M$ and $N$ of set theory such that $\emptyset^M \ne \emptyset^N$. So what is the set that's being proved to exist? (Of course this can't happen with transitive models, but the question doesn't say anything about transitive models.) – Trevor Wilson Apr 02 '15 at 20:56
  • @AsafKaragila Aren't we just talking about definable sets? I mean there certainly are countable models of ZFC assuming Con(ZFC) by the usual lowenheim-skolem argument no? If we look at all definable sets you should get a countable model. It won't be transitive and won't contain all ordinals so you don't get issues with $L$. Or is there tons of things I'm missing? – DRF May 12 '15 at 06:49
  • @DRF: Let me point out two things. (1) Why are we assuming $\sf\operatorname{Con}(ZFC)$? (2) Definable where? If the model is pointwise-definable, then everything is definable; if the model is much more complicated, then perhaps very few sets are definable. Read the first comment by Trevor, I think it smacks the issues on the nose. – Asaf Karagila May 12 '15 at 07:10
  • @AsafKaragila I see what you are saying particularly with (2). I was essentially thinking of trying to use the same methods of construction as you would when you define $L$ but somehow leaving out the full infinite recursion along all ordinals. I admit I'm not sure exactly what I mean by that though. The other approach I was considering was just taking a Godel ordering on sentences finding all those that define sets and using them as the underlying universe. – DRF May 12 '15 at 07:47
  • @DRF: But the formulas live in the meta-theory. Suppose the universe disagrees with its meta-theory about the integers, then there will invariably be more formulas internal to the universe. You can't deal with that in terms of internal definability. – Asaf Karagila May 12 '15 at 07:51
  • Maybe the author of the question thinks ZF refers to itself when it doesn't. There probably are some systems that refer to themselves and in one of them, you can derive Richard's paradox showing that the system is inconsistent so maybe the answer is that you can't derive Richard's paradox in ZF because ZF is not one of those systems. – Timothy Apr 13 '18 at 00:28
  • I know ZF cannot describe a way of counting all the subsets of N that exist, but we want to assert that there is a way to do it so that means there are subsets of N that cannot be described in ZF. You can create a stronger system do describe that way of counting them. If you also add rules of inference where you assert that the subsets of N that ZF describes are the only ones, and for any set the stronger system can describe, you assert that ZF can describe it, then you get an inconsistent system. You must break some assumption to get a consistent system. Certain assumption if you insist on – Timothy Jun 20 '19 at 22:48
  • keeping, I think you end up getting a consistent system that's a variation of New Foundations where the set of all natural numbers is the universal set. In that theory, every natural number is a set of natural numbers, and those sets of natural numbers that are a natural number are the only sets of natural numbers. Here, the identity function on the natural numbers is not stratisfied and the function that assigns to each natural number the set that contains only that natural number doesn't exist. Maybe you're thinking in that system. If you accept that theory, it can explain why the brain – Timothy Jun 20 '19 at 22:55
  • has a consciousness that thinks in other theories where there are uncountably many subsets of N. Maybe the sequence of all properties of the natural numbers describable in Peano arithmetic actually doesn't exist for the consciousness to conceive of. Maybe what's really happening is the brain knows how to create its own consistent incorrect system that breaks true assumptions and asserts that there exists a natural number that is the set gotten by applying Cantor's diagonal argument to the identity function but for each natural number, it's provable that that natural number is not the set – Timothy Jun 20 '19 at 23:03
  • gotten by applying Cantor's diagonal argument to the identity function. If you accept that variation of New Foundations, it's obviously true that no natural number is the set gotten by applying Cantor's diagonal argument to the identity function. It's just that the brain can create a system that breaks an assumption of that theory and forms another assumption that there exists a natural number with a certain property when there isn't one and it ends up consistent because you can prove in it for each natural number that it doesn't have that property but cannot prove in it that none of them do. – Timothy Jun 20 '19 at 23:08

2 Answers2

2

I don't know if there's a name for that model, but there's a name of a famous "dilemma" in set theory. Formally it is not a dilemma, because it has a very reasonable, and formal, solution.

The Skolem paradox says exactly that there exists a countable model of set theory. You only need something called (downward) Löwenheim-Skolem theorem; this theorem states that if $\mathcal{L}$ is a first-order language with cardinality $\mu$, and $\mathcal{T}$ is an $\mathcal{L}$-theory with an infinite model $\mathcal{M}$, then there is a countable elementary submodel $\mathcal{A}$ of $\mathcal{M}$ of size at most $\mu$ (if you're not familiar with this terminology you can understand it as "exists a smaller universe where happens everything that happen in the larger one"). It is trivial that the language $\mathcal{L}_\in$ of set theory has cardinality $\aleph_0$, and $\mathbf{ZFC}$ (we do not know if this theory is consistent, but we can give it the benefit of the doubt, that is we can assume that in fact it is consistent) has infinite models (such as $V_\kappa$ with $\kappa$ inaccessible).

With that we have a countable model $\mathcal{M}$ of set theory in which $\omega_1$ exists, that sounds like a paradox but in fact it isn't. When you say that $\omega_1$ (in fact $\omega_2,\omega_3,\dots$) lives in this countable universe $\mathcal{M}$ (and yes $\mathcal{P}(\mathbb{N})$ lives here too) you're only saying that there's someone that plays the role of $\omega_1$; you aren't saying that this $\omega_1$, lets call it $\omega_1^\mathcal{M}$, is the "real" first uncountable ordinal, like the one that responds to our mathematical intuition (it can not be). You are just saying that $\mathcal{M}$ does not have enough material to build the real one, so it has build a cheaper one. In fact you could think of $\omega_1^\mathcal{M}$ as $\omega_1\cap\mathcal{M}$ (this isn't quite right but responds to an intuitive argument).

Hope this responds to your question!

2

There are some inherent problems with this question, which stem from a naive approach to this issue.

First of all, formulas and proofs live in the meta-theory, whereas sets live in the universe of the theory.

Let me interpret your question, in the most naive way, then, "proof of existence" is a parameter-free formula $\varphi(u)$ such that $\sf ZF$ proves that there exists a set $x$ which is exactly the class defined by $\varphi$.

[I am taking parameter free formulas here, since once you start with parameters you can just write $\varphi(u,x)$ to be $u\in x$, and then every set provably exists with itself as the parameter. You can start talking about predicative formulas and stuff like this, but now you complicate everything because you need to start keeping track of your formulas and parameters, and that makes everything harder.]

Now, let's move on to existence. You want to "carve" these sets out of some model, I presume. So in principle, it seems, you have the set theoretic universe, and you ask what is the collection of sets which satisfy this "provable existence". Of course, this collection itself is not first-order definable, but let's not worry about this for now.

Suppose that our universe is one where every set is definable without parameters (this is consistent, and of course, implies—in the meta-theory—that the model is countable), then for every $\varphi(u)$ you can now write $\varphi'(u)$ to be "$\varphi(u)$ if it defines a set, or the empty set otherwise". Then every set in the universe provably exist, and you get the whole model.

But suppose that you are in a different universe. Say working over an uncountable model, or something else where not even every countable ordinal is definable, then $\omega_1$, while provably exists, will appear after a significant gap when you exhaust the provably-existing-countable ordinals.

Here is an observation. If $\alpha$ is an ordinal which provably exist, then $V_\alpha$ and $\omega_\alpha$ provably exist, and in fact, for every $x$ which provably exists, $\mathcal P^\alpha(x)$ also provably exists. But you quickly run into problems here, either all sets provably exist, or you start having "holes" in your universe fairly fast. And you lose transitivity, making this collection odd. Sure, we can collapse this class to a transitive class (relative to the universe, of course). But there is absolutely no guarantee now that this is a model of $\sf ZF$.

In the comments, it seems that you want to think about this as somehow built inductively, step by step, by taking at each point the subsets "which provably exist". Perhaps similar to the construction of $L$ by taking the definable subsets. But here is the issue. When we construct $L$, we use the internal notion of "definable". This notion is at least somewhat robust, since given a structure, you can talk about the definable subsets there.

Suppose that we wanted to try and use "provably existing" instead of "definable". You run into two major problems:

  1. Different structures have different theories. In the construction of $L$ we go through several different theories at different steps. There are $L_\alpha$'s which satisfy the power set axiom, and others which do not. There are some which satisfy "every set is countable" and others which satisfy $\sf ZFC$. If you want to talk about provability, you need to fix your theory, but the collection of sets that provably exist—and especially if you think about this as an inductive construction—need not satisfy your theory again.

  2. Different universes might disagree with their meta-theory about proofs and definitions. Since your universe and its meta-theory might disagree on the integers, they might also disagree on whether or not $\sf ZF$ is even consistent, or plenty of other things of that fashion which might complete skew the internal notion of provability and give you unwanted results. This might be overcome if you assume more, e.g. that you work inside a transitive model, or something like that, but this just shows that these assumptions are not "clean".

Alas, not all is bad. In a very recent post on arXiv, Merlin Carl and Philipp Schlicht define the notion of a canonical sentence, which is a sentence which provably describes some unique inner model (e.g. $V=L$). This notion is much more technical and I think to some extent tries to capture the notion of "canonically existing models", which is what I think you're trying to get with "all provably existing sets". But of course, this is more complicated than just that.

Merlin Carl and Philipp Schlicht, Canonical Truth. Posted on Dec. 7th, 2017, arXiv:1712.02566.

Asaf Karagila
  • 405,794