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I have to check if the equation $3x^2+5y^2-7z^2=0$ has a non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}$. If it has, I have to find at least one. If it doesn't have, I have to find at which p-adic fields it has no rational solution.

Theorem:

We suppose that $a,b,c \in \mathbb{Z}, (a,b)=(b,c)=(a,c)=1$.

$abc$ is square-free. Then, the equation $ax^2+by^2+cz^2=0$ has a non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q} \Leftrightarrow$

  1. $a,b,c$ do not have the same sign.
    1. $\forall p \in \mathbb{P} \setminus \{ 2 \}, p \mid a$, $\exists r \in \mathbb{Z}$ such that $b+r^2c \equiv 0 \pmod p$ and similar congruence for the primes $p \in \mathbb{P} \setminus \{ 2 \}$, for which $p \mid b$ or $p \mid c$.
    2. If $a,b,c$ are all odd, then there are two of $a,b,c$, so that their sum is divided by $4$.
    3. If $a$ even, then $b+c$ or $a+b+c$ is divisible by $8$. Similar, if $b$ or $c$ even.

The first sentence is satisfied.

For the second one:

$$p=3:$$

$$5+x^2(-7) \equiv 0 \pmod 3 \Rightarrow x^2 \equiv 2 \mod 3$$ $$\left ( \frac{2}{3} \right)=-1$$

So, we see that the equation hasn't non-trivial solutions in $\mathbb{Q}$.

EDIT:

To check if there is a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$, we use the following lemma:

If $2 \nmid abc$ and $a+b \equiv 0 \pmod 4$, then the equation $ax^2+by^2+cz^2=0$ has at least one non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$.

In our case, $a+b=8 \equiv 0 \pmod 4$, so there is no solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$, right?

For $p=3,5,7$, we use the following lemma:

Let $p \neq 2$ be a prime, $a,b$ and $c$ be pairwise coprime integers with $abc$ square-free and $p \mid a$, and $Q: ax^2+by^2+cz^2=0$ a quadratic form. Then there is a solution to $\mathbb{Q}$ over $\mathbb{Q}_p$ iff $-\frac{b}{c}$ is a square $\mod p$.

$$\left( -\frac{5}{-7}\right)=\left( \frac{5}{7} \right)=-1$$

So, there is no non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_3$.

$$\left( \frac{-3}{-7} \right)=\left( \frac{3}{7} \right)=-1$$

So, there is no non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_5$.

$$\left( -\frac{3}{5}\right)=-1$$

So, there is no non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_7$.

It remains to check if the equation has non-trivial solutions in $\mathbb{Q}_p, p \neq 2,3,5,7$.

Can we do this, by only using the pigeonhole principle?

Or do we have to apply Hensel's Lemma? If so, how could we do this? I haven't understood it..

evinda
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    Rational means rational means rational. You need to say "in which $p$-adic fields does the equation have no solution?" Don't preface "solution" with rational, because if there is no solution in $\Bbb Q$ then there is no "rational" solution! – anon Nov 04 '14 at 17:45
  • @anon That's what the exercise asks, but it must be a typo!!! – evinda Nov 04 '14 at 17:51
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    For all $p$ you can simply set $z=1$ and use the same technique I used in my answer to your previous question. In other words, so that you can then pick $y$ from the set ${0,1,2,\ldots,p-1}$ in such a way that Hensel's Lemma proves the existence of an $x\in\Bbb{Z}_p$. The primes 2,3,5,7 need to be dealt with separately. I don't know the answer yet. – Jyrki Lahtonen Nov 04 '14 at 22:34
  • @JyrkiLahtonen I tried it and edited my post.. Could you tell me if it is right?

    Also, could you explain why we can just set $z=1$ ?

    – evinda Nov 05 '14 at 18:27
  • For $p=3$ and $p=5$ how did you go from $3x^2+5y^2-7z^2$ to $5+x^2(-7)$? For $p=7$ how did you get $3+5x^2$? For your general $p$ case, you're holding $y$ fixed at an arbitrary integer right? You showed $F'(X)\color{Red}{\not\cong}0$ (fix that), but the other hypothesis of Hensel's is you must have a root mod $p$; did you show there is a root to $3T^2+5y^2-7$ mod $p$? Finally, you can set $z=1$ because if there is a solution with $z=1$ in particular then there is a solution, which answers the question. – anon Nov 05 '14 at 18:41
  • @anon For $p=3,5$, I thought, that I could use the second sentence of the theorem. So, can't we do it like that? $$$$ Isn't $x$ a solution of $3T^2+5y^2-7 \pmod p$, or am I wrong? $$$$ So, does this also mean, that if we have a solution, there is also a solution with $z=1$ ? – evinda Nov 05 '14 at 18:47
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    I'll look at your theorem later and see how it's relevant, I have to leave in a moment. For your second question - um, what is $x$? What is it? What number, or residue, is it mod $p$? Lastly, for your third question, why would you even think that? I mean, $x^2+y^2+z+1=0$ has a solution, but that doesn't mean it has a solution with $z=1$. The converse of a true implication is not necessarily true. – anon Nov 05 '14 at 18:50
  • @anon How else could I find a solution of $3T^2+5y^2-7 \pmod p$ ? $$$$ So, we suppose that it has a solution, when $z=1$, that's why we take this value of $z$ ? – evinda Nov 05 '14 at 18:53
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    You still need to prove that you can choose $y$ from the set ${0,1,2,\ldots,p-1}$ in such a way that there exist an $x\in{1,\ldots,p-1}$ such that $(x,y,1)$ is a solution modulo $p$. That part of my argument goes through with the obvious changes here. Some care is needed to make sure that $x\neq0$. – Jyrki Lahtonen Nov 05 '14 at 19:49
  • @JyrkiLahtonen Could you explain me how we could prove that we can choose $y$ from the set ${0,1,2, \dots, p-1 }$, in such a way that there exist an $x \in {1, \dots, p-1 }$, such that $(x,y,1)$ is a solution modulo $p$ ?Also, how can we make sure that $x \neq 0$ ? – evinda Nov 05 '14 at 19:56
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    The same counting argument. Because $p\neq 5$ the function $7-5y^2$ has $(p+1)/2$ non congruent residues modulo $p$, when $y$ ranges over the set $J={0,1,2,\ldots,p-1}$. Because $p\neq3$, the same holds for the function $3x^2$, with $x$ ranging over $J$. Therefore for some $x_0\in J$, $y_0\in J$ we have $3x_0^2\equiv 7-5y_0^2\pmod p$. Necessarily either $x_0\neq0$ or $y_0\neq0$. In the former case the polynomial $3x^2+5y_0^2-7$ has a solution modulo $p$, namely $x_0$. In this case $6x_0\neq0$, so Hensel implies that there exists $x\in\Bbb{Z}_p$ such that $x\equiv x_0$ and $3x^2+5y_0^2-7=0$. – Jyrki Lahtonen Nov 05 '14 at 22:02
  • (cont'd) The case $x_0=0$, $y_0\neq0$ is handled similarly. We needed $p\neq7$ to make sure that the solution modulo $p$ is not $x_0=y_0=0$. – Jyrki Lahtonen Nov 05 '14 at 22:04
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    The reason we suppose $z=1$ is because it's convenient and works. You understand that if there's a solution with $z=1$ then there exists a solution, right? Anyway, your theorem is for $\Bbb Q$, so I don't see how you're applying it for $\Bbb Q_p$. – anon Nov 05 '14 at 23:54
  • @anon How can I check then if there are solutions in $\mathbb{Q}_3$, $\mathbb{Q}_5$ and $\mathbb{Q}_7$ ? :/ – evinda Nov 06 '14 at 17:41
  • @JyrkiLahtonen In my notes, there is the following theorem:

    Let prime $p>2$. Then there are exactly $\frac{p-1}{2}$ pairwise non-congruent $\mod p$quadratic residues $\pmod p$.

    $$$$

    Could you explain me why the function $7-5y^2$ has $\frac{p+1}{2}$ non congruent residues modulo $p$?

    – evinda Nov 06 '14 at 18:46
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    Re: your comment to me: Do you have any ideas? Have you tried anything? This should spoil most of the problem: without loss of generality $x,y,z\in\Bbb Z_p$ (why?), so reduce the equation mod $p$ and examine. Re: your comment to Jyrki: if you apply a bijection to a set, the image will have the same size... – anon Nov 06 '14 at 21:09
  • @anon It is like that:

    $$3x^2+5y^2-7z^2 \equiv x^2+y^2+z^2 \equiv 0 \pmod 2, \text{ that can be true, so there is a solution in } \mathbb{Q}_2$$

    $$3x^2+5y^2-7z^2 \equiv 2y^2+2z^2 \equiv 0 \pmod 3 \Rightarrow y^2+z^2 \equiv 0 \pmod 3, \text{ that can be true, so there is a solution in } \mathbb{Q}_3$$

    $$3x^2+5y^2-7z^2 \equiv 3x^2+5y^2 \equiv 0 \pmod 7 \Rightarrow 3x^2-2y^2 \equiv 0 \pmod 7 \Rightarrow 3x^2 \equiv 2y^2 \pmod 7, \text{ that cannot be true, so there is no solution in } \mathbb{Q}_7$$

    right? But, isn't there an other way I could check if there are solutions $\mod p$ ? :/

    – evinda Nov 06 '14 at 22:44
  • But the equation: $3x^2=5y^2+7z^2$ there is an integer solution. – individ Nov 07 '14 at 05:38
  • If we use the pigeonhole principle, don't we have to apply Hensel's Lemma? – evinda Nov 27 '14 at 00:08

1 Answers1

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Your theorem tells you straight away that the equation has no solutions in $\mathbb{Q}$ (that is, no rational solution). As was also pointed out in the earlier comments, a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_p$ is NOT a 'rational solution', as the values of $x, y$ and $z$ need not be rationals! Without seeing the proof for your theorem, you shouldn't really invoke certain parts of it as you've done afterwards; for example, you've taken a local condition at 3, shown that it's not satisfied, and concluded that there is no solution in $\mathbb{Q}_3$. It's true that no such solution exists - but as your theorem stands, you've not given a proof. The theorem is proved using the Hasse-Minkowski theorem (which says that such equations have a rational root if and only if they have one everywhere locally), and during the proof you will end up showing the following, which is what you need:

Lemma: Let $p \neq 2$ be a prime, $a,b$ and $c$ be pairwise coprime integers with $abc$ square-free and $p|a$, and $Q: ax^2 + by^2 + cz^2 = 0$ a quadratic form. Then there is a solution to $Q$ over $\mathbb{Q}_p$ if and only if $-b/c$ is a square mod $p$.

Proof: Suppose a solution exists. Then by scaling, we may assume that $y$ and $z$ lie in $\mathbb{Z}_p$, and indeed that they lie in $\mathbb{Z}_p^\times$. (Suppose without loss of generality that $y \in p\mathbb{Z}_p;$ then as $p|a$, $p|y$ and $p\nmid c$, we must have $p|z,$ and hence $p|x$ by considering the parity of the exponent of $p$ in the sum. So we can divide our trio $(x,y,z)$ by $p$.)

Now consider the equation mod $p$. This becomes equivalent to $(z/y)^2 \equiv -b/c$ mod $p,$ where we can divide by $c$ and $y^2$ as they have invertible image in $\mathbb{F}_p$. So $z/y$ gives the corresponding element of $\mathbb{F}_p$ that squares to $-b/c$.

Conversely, suppose that we have $Z^2 \equiv -b/c$ mod $p$. Then in particular, $p\nmid Z$ and the trio ($x,y,z) = (0,1,Z)$ gives a solution mod $p$. Using Hensel's lemma (and using that $p\neq 2$) we see that this lifts to a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_p$, as required.

This Lemma applies directly to your case, with the obvious symmetry for $p|b$ or $p|c$. In particular, you've shown that $5/7 \equiv 2$ is not a square mod 3, hence there is no solution in $\mathbb{Q}_3$, that $3/7 \equiv 4$ is a square mod 5, so there is a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_5$, and $-5/3\equiv 3$ is not a square mod 7, so there isn't a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_7$.

For primes not dividing $abc$ and not equal to 2, as has already been pointed out, you can use Hensel easily to show that solutions exist via a counting argument on quadratic residues mod $p$.

The case of $\mathbb{Q}_2$ is trickier, as we can't use Hensel or the Lemma directly. Can you prove a similar Lemma to the one above to show that the local conditions at 2 in your theorem are precisely the ones that determine when there is a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$? Once you've done that, your work above shows that there is a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$, and furthermore you've done all of the work in proving your theorem (once you invoke Hasse-Minkowski, of course!).

joriki
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  • The formula in General there. http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/738446/solutions-to-ax2-by2-cz2/738527#738527 Using the condition for the existence of solutions you can tell when decisions will be. This is to ascertain whether there is an equivalent quadratic form when the root is intact. Usually all boils down to the representation of a number as a sum of squares. But it is not satisfied. And continues to try to find condition as the solution module. – individ Nov 07 '14 at 10:16
  • Chris Williams Did you conclude that $\frac{-b}{c}$ is, for example, not a square mod $7$, since the Legendre symbol is equal to $\left ( \frac{\frac{-b}{c}}{7} \right )=-1$ ?

    $$$$

    In my notes, there is the following sentence:

    If $2 \nmid abc$ and $a+b \equiv 0 \pmod 4$, then the equation $ax^2+by^2+cz^2=0$ has at least one non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$.

    Can I use this? If so, is it like that? $$$$ $a+b=3+5 \equiv 8 \equiv 0 \pmod 4$

    So, there is no solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$.

    Or am I wrong?

    – evinda Nov 07 '14 at 16:28
  • Could you also explain me how we can use Hensel, in order to show that solutions exist via a counting argument on quadratic residues mod $p$ ? – evinda Nov 07 '14 at 17:37
  • In this case, I know that $-b/c$ isn't a square mod 7 as the only squares mod 7 are 0, 1, 2 and 4 (and yes, this is precisely the definition of the Legendre symbol, as you say).

    Also, you can use the property you claim to show that there is a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_2$, since the equation satisfies those properties.

    – Chris Williams Nov 07 '14 at 17:52
  • Nice!!! Thank you Chris :-) Could you maybe also explain me how I could use Hensel's Lemma, in order to check if the equation has a solution in $\mathbb{Q}_p$, where $p \neq 2,3,5,7$ ? – evinda Nov 07 '14 at 18:09
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    For your other question about counting arguments: there are precisely $(p+1)/2$ quadratic residues mod $p$ for any odd prime $p$ (as for any non-zero class $x$ mod $p$, we have $x^2 \equiv (-x)^2$ mod $p$ and $x \neq -x$ mod $p$, whilst the equation $X^2 \equiv a$ mod $p$ has at most 2 solutions in $\mathbb{F}_p \cong \mathbb{Z}/p\mathbb{Z}$. Thus the non-zero elements mod $p$ pair up and we get $(p-1)/2$ non-zero residues). Then fix $z=1$. There are $(p+1)/2$ possible values of $3x^2$ and $-7 + 5y^2$ for $x,y$ mod $p$. Thus, by the pigeonhole principle, $\exists x,y$ s.t. we have a solution! – Chris Williams Nov 07 '14 at 18:23
  • @ChrisWilliams I haven't understood why there are precisely $\frac{p+1}{2}$ quadratic residues mod $p$ for any odd prime $p$.

    Could you explain it further to me?

    – evinda Nov 07 '14 at 18:28
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    Suppose $a$ is a non-zero residue. Then $a \equiv x^2$ mod $p$ for some $x$ mod $p$. Then we also have $a \equiv (-x)^2$ mod $p$, and $x\neq -x$ mod $p$ (as then $2x \equiv 0$ mod $p$, so $x \equiv 0$ mod $p$ contradiction). So as there are at MOST 2 solutions to $X^2 - a \equiv 0$ mod $p$, $x$ and $-x$ are precisely the elements that square to $a$ mod $p$. Thus all of the $(p-1)$ non-zero elements in $\mathbb{Z}/p\mathbb{Z}$ pair off, with each pair giving a unique residue. So there are $1 + (p-1)/2 = (p+1)/2$ residues (where we add 1 as 0 is a residue). – Chris Williams Nov 07 '14 at 18:33
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    Sorry, I've realised I made a sign error in one of the comments above; it should read 'there are $(p+1)/2$ possible values of $3x^2$ and $(p+1)/2$ possible values of $7 - 5y^2$ for $x,y$ mod $p$.' Then by the PP you have that for some $x,y$, we have $3x^2 = 7 -5y^2$ mod $p$, which then gives a solution. (I didn't have space to write that last sentence in the above comment, either). – Chris Williams Nov 07 '14 at 18:43
  • @ChrisWilliams According to my notes, it is like that:

    Let $m \geq 1$ and $(a,m)=1$. If the equation $x^2 \equiv a \pmod m$ has a solution, then we say that $a$ is a quadratic residue mod $m$.

    Why do we innclude $0$ at the quadratic residues?

    – evinda Nov 07 '14 at 19:02
  • It's a matter of convention. Clearly for any $p$ there is an integer that squares to $0$ mod $p$ (take, for example, $0$...). When you define the Legendre symbol you'd take $\left(\frac{0}{p}\right) = 0$; there are precisely $(p-1)/2$ integers $a$ in ${1,...,p-1}$ with $\left(\frac{a}{p}\right) = 1$. What's important here is that if you take the $p$ elements of the finite field $\mathbb{F}_p = \mathbb{Z}/p\mathbb{Z}$, and square all of them, you will get $(p+1)/2$ distinct values. – Chris Williams Nov 07 '14 at 19:06
  • @ChrisWilliams Is there also an other way to show that $\exists x,y$ such that we have a solution, without using the pigeonhole principle ? Also, can we take $z=1$, no matter which equation we have? For example, neither this equation: $3x^2+7y^2-5z^2=0$ has no solution, since the congruence $x^2 \equiv 2 \pmod 3$ has no solutions. Can we again take $z=1$? – evinda Nov 10 '14 at 17:48
  • I don't know of another way off the top of my head, though that's not to say there aren't other ways! For primes outside $2,3,5,7$ we take $z=1$ simply because it works; we only need to exhibit ONE solution to use Hensel. For $p = 3$, this isn't enough. Proving that there are no solutions when $z = 1$ only shows that there is no solution with $z=1$, not that there are no solutions at all mod $3$! Does that answer your question? – Chris Williams Nov 11 '14 at 08:52
  • @ChrisWilliams I found that there is no solution in $\mathbb{Q}_5$, since $\left ( \frac{3}{7}\right )=(-1) \cdot \left ( \frac{1}{3}\right )=-1 $.. Am I wrong? – evinda Nov 26 '14 at 23:30
  • If we use the pigeonhole principle, don't we have to apply Hensel's Lemma? @ChrisWilliams – evinda Nov 27 '14 at 00:07