2

In my undergraduate course I had to prove this:$ \nabla \cdot (u \cdot v) = u \cdot \nabla(v) + v \cdot \nabla(u)$

But I believe that statement is wrong, I think it should be the following: $\nabla \cdot (u \cdot v)= \partial^{j} (u^i v^{i}) = u^{i} \partial^{j} v^{i} + v^{i} \partial^{j} u^{i} = \nabla v \cdot u + \nabla u \cdot v $

Here the "dot product" does not commute since the gradient of a vector is a matrix and the dot product of a vector with a matrix is non commutative like this:

$\nabla v \cdot u = (\partial ^{j} v^{i} e^{j} \otimes e^{i}) \cdot (u^{k} e^{k}) = \partial ^{j} v^{i} u^{i} = u^{i} \partial ^{j} v^{i}$

$u \cdot \nabla v = (u^{k} e^{k}) \cdot (\partial ^{j} v^{i} e^{j} \otimes e^{i}) = u^{j} \partial ^{j} v^{i}$

$\therefore \nabla v \cdot u \neq u \cdot \nabla v$

My questions is, I'm doing something wrong for reaching this result:

$\nabla \cdot (u \cdot v)= \nabla v \cdot u + \nabla u \cdot v $

Instead of this:

$ \nabla \cdot (u \cdot v) = u \cdot \nabla(v) + v \cdot \nabla(u)$

  • 2
    Are $u,v$ vectors? If thats the case, then $u\cdot v$ is a scalar right? Thus, how do you define the divergence of a scalar? Am I missing something? The divergence is supposed to be defined for a vector field, right? – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 17:43
  • That's something that also bothers me, the teacher defined that in a quite informal way with Einstein notation. In this case the divergence of tensors up to rank 2 (thus included rank 0) is just $\nabla \cdot T = \partial ^{i} T^{ij}$ then for a rank 0 a tensor you get a vector $\partial ^{i} a$ (a is in general a non constant scalar) – Juan Franco Acosta Nov 05 '20 at 17:50
  • 1
    Ok, so by $\nabla \cdot (u \cdot v)$, you mean basically the gradient of $u\cdot v$ right? – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 17:52
  • No no, $\nabla \cdot (u \cdot v)$ like the title of the post says. The gradient would be $\nabla (u \cdot v) $ – Juan Franco Acosta Nov 05 '20 at 17:54
  • 1
    Oh, sure, but for the scalar $ u\cdot v$, the gradient and the divergence would be the same right? For instance you said that for a rank 0 tensor $a$, you obtain a vector with $\partial^ia$ as components (aka the gradient).

    Sorry, I'm trying to understand what are the definitions your are using.

    – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 17:56
  • Oh yes, I ask forgiveness for not understanding what you said. In this case it appears the definition given to me makes $\nabla \cdot (u \cdot u)= \nabla (u \cdot v)$ which also bothers me haha. – Juan Franco Acosta Nov 05 '20 at 17:59
  • No problem. Another thing. Can you provide a reference on where are you being asked to prove the first identity? (maybe its a book we could look at) I agree with your conclusion. The correct expression should be the second one. If one would have to use terms of the form $v \cdot \nabla u$, one would have to add cross product terms. See: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3089297/formula-of-the-gradient-of-vector-dot-product and https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/496060/gradient-of-a-dot-product/3322522#3322522 – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 18:24
  • Ok, are you sure you are being asked to compute $\nabla \cdot (u\cdot v)$? My guess is that you are maybe asked to compute something like $\nabla \cdot (uv)$ or that we don't have the correct definition of what divergence means in your case. You obtain a different result, since you are computing it as if it was the gradient, similarly to what I have tried. But again, you obtain a different result, maybe because you are supposed to compute the divergence of a different quantity, or we need a better definition of what your teacher meant by divergence. – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 18:51
  • If you could provide maybe the textbook you are using, and maybe the book exercise or something, we could finally settle this. Again, we can now be sure, that we can't compute such quantity as the gradient as I suggested (see the links I provided before) since there would be missing terms in your first identity. – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 18:52
  • Is not from a textbook. It's from a sheet of optional exercises the teacher gave us. And I'm 100% the problem is $\nabla \cdot (u \cdot v)$ this is the only question in the sheet I can't get right. I tried asking the professor if the question was correct and he told me it is correct. I do believe the problem is wrong in some sense. – Juan Franco Acosta Nov 05 '20 at 19:01
  • 1
    Don't worry, we will find out whats going on. The most probable thing is that your teacher is correct. I found some references which agree with the first identity. I'll keep looking and let you know if I find something. – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 19:22
  • Thanks, and sorry for the trouble. – Juan Franco Acosta Nov 05 '20 at 19:37

1 Answers1

1

I think I found out whats going on. First of all, we can all agree that $\nabla\cdot(u\cdot v)=\nabla(u\cdot v)$, so we are computing the gradient of a dot product. Now, it all depends on how you define the gradient of a vector: if you define it as $\nabla v = \partial^i v^j e^i\otimes e^j$ or as $\nabla v = \partial^j v^i e^i\otimes e^j$. I have found references that differ between these two. Note that one is just the transpose of the other. I prefer the first one which is the one that you are using actually. With the first notation you obtain the second identity ($\nabla \cdot (u \cdot v)=\nabla v \cdot u + \nabla u \cdot v $) just as you showed.

However, if we look into wikipedia here we see that for two vector fields $A,B$ we get $$ \nabla(A\cdot B) = A\cdot \nabla B + B\cdot \nabla A $$ where its important not to confuse $A\cdot \nabla B$ with $(A\cdot \nabla) B$ as I did in the comments. Note that this equation coincides with your first identity (the problematic one), and not the second one. This can be explained by how the gradient of a vector is defined in that wikipedia page here in which the gradient is basically defined as $\nabla v = \partial^j v^i e^i\otimes e^j$ ($\nabla A = \left[\frac{\partial A_i}{\partial x^j}\right]_{ij}$ in the wikipedia notation) different from what you used as the definition of gradient in your procedure.

Under this setting: $$ u\cdot \nabla v = (u^ke^k)\cdot(\partial^jv^ie^i\otimes e^j) = (u^i\partial^jv^i)e^j $$ with the term $u^i\partial^jv^i$ as what you obtained with $\nabla v\cdot u$ with the other definition of $\nabla v$. (remember that $e^k\cdot (e^i\otimes e^j) = \delta^{ki}e^j$ with $\delta^{ki}$ the Kronecker delta, so you missed the $e^j$ in your procedure).

This is the most probable explanation of whats going on: your teacher may have defined the gradient as the transpose of what you understand as the gradient. Sounds like a reasonable confusion to me but let me know your thoughts.

  • Yes, you are right. How you define the gradient is what's going on here. The definition given in class is the one I'm using but apparently the profesor mixes the two, in some notes is the one I used and in other is the one you provide. Using the latter gives the answer I'm looking. Thank you so much for your time and help. – Juan Franco Acosta Nov 05 '20 at 20:30
  • 1
    No problem. Good luck! – FeedbackLooper Nov 05 '20 at 20:35